What happens when you die : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:01 pm

I have been playing TES since Morrowind and while planning a character for Skyrim it suddenly struck me I'm not sure what does each race think happens after they die..
Help me out.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:22 am

Your soul gets stripped of everything it once was, goes through the dreamsleeve and is reincarnated. That's what happens. What each race believes happens I'm not 100% certain.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:00 am

Imperials think their souls go to Aetherius, Nords think they go to Sovngarde (if they died honorably, at least), Argonians seem to think their souls go back to the Hist (if my understanding of the novels is correct). That's all I can think of, at the moment.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:50 pm

Not all the time the soul is recycled to that thing called the Dreamsleeve. Sometimes they remain on the mortal realm if there is unfinished buisiness or they go to a Daedric Realm forever if they worshiped/bound to that particular Prince.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:47 am

OK I'm starting to get a grasp of things..

Most (all?) RL religions are based on reward and punishment (heaven and hell, reincarnation as a higher or lower beeing...)
What's up with that in Nirn??

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:08 am

OK I'm starting to get a grasp of things..

Most (all?) RL religions are based on reward and punishment (heaven and hell, reincarnation as a higher or lower beeing...)
What's up with that in Nirn??

As far as I know, there's not anything like that. Which makes me happy.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:01 pm

OK I'm starting to get a grasp of things..

Most (all?) RL religions are based on reward and punishment (heaven and hell, reincarnation as a higher or lower beeing...)
What's up with that in Nirn??

You could have been the greatest philanthropist, or the most blood thirsty deranged murderer ever, and it wouldn't matter; most of everyone's soul will be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, stripped of all memories and identity.

Why most? Sometimes, souls will stay on Mundus, as they may have unfinished business, or the mortal bound itself to a daedric prince (think Paradise or SI for an example of that)

And it's more like some. I know with the ancient Greeks, and likely by extension the Romans, you get sent to the underwould to chill with Hades forever. Doesn't matter if you were horrifically evil or good, though sometimes the punishment for pissing on the gods will leave one with a [censored] life in the underworld.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:00 am

What purpose does religion have then??
What incentives are there to lead a "good" life vs a murderer??

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:49 am

What purpose does religion have then??
What incentives are there to lead a "good" life vs a murderer??

Being good for the sake of being good is enough. : )

If people only do it for a reward in the end then..... well they aren't really all that good.

Plus most of the people of Nirn don't know what really happens after death so religion works just fine for them.

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:19 pm

Being good for the sake of being good is enough. : )

If people only do it for a reward in the end then..... well they aren't really all that good.

Plus most of the people of Nirn don't know what really happens after death so religion works just fine for them.

I like that. It's very pleasant, warm, and cozy.

Lead an evil life, get killed by competing bandits and rogues, and leave my soul undefended to the snares of a necromancer. Or attract the attention of a daedric prince. Molag Bal as a cellmate!

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:39 am

What purpose does religion have then??
What incentives are there to lead a "good" life vs a murderer??

It's not merely being good or bad, but realizing Shor's purpose. After all, Vivec reached it through violence, and Talos through betrayal, cloak and dagger, and manipulation.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:12 am

And it's more like some. I know with the ancient Greeks, and likely by extension the Romans, you get sent to the underwould to chill with Hades forever. Doesn't matter if you were horrifically evil or good, though sometimes the punishment for pissing on the gods will leave one with a [censored] life in the underworld.

Well, they did eventually develop the idea of Elysium, the "Isles of the Blessed" originally reserved for the God's mortal offspring but later extended to a haven for the righteous. Hell, a lot of the Philosophers actually believed in reincarnation where the conditions of rebirth depended on conduct.

I like to think that the Cyrodiils have similarly nuanced beliefs (with reincarnation being exclusive to select Nibenese cults).

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:15 am

What purpose does religion have then??
What incentives are there to lead a "good" life vs a murderer??

None at all. In fact, you're much better off being a murderer than a loving mother. Please Boethiah, and you might get an eternity of orgies. Please Mara, and you'll get nada.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:10 pm

Werecreatures like werewolves and werebears go to spend Eternity in Hircine's realm, some even prefer it. Being a Lycanthrope brings the individual closer to their patron, so when they die they go to his Realm and spend an eternity hunting there, explains the nordic werebears from "Infernal City". This is credible evidence and ingame dialogue for this.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:56 am

OK I'm starting to get a grasp of things..

Most (all?) RL religions are based on reward and punishment (heaven and hell, reincarnation as a higher or lower beeing...)
What's up with that in Nirn??

That's mostly modern religions. A lot of ancient faiths had different sets of things. The afterlife almost always svcked to ancient Greeks, and the quality of afterlife to Norseman had little to nothing to do with morality or punishment, and a lot of TES religions are more on that tack.

Now, the Dreamsleeve thing is the generally accepted one, but I (and this is EXCLUSIVELY my own assessment and is not to be taken as fact at all) think that sometimes the worship and veneration of certain gods may cut the soul of a living person from the oversoul of the Dreamsleeve and keep them intact and individuated in another realm, primarily I mean the Daedra but I believe Sovngarde may be as well. I want to check on Skyrim first, because I think the warriors in the awful fighting may be the valorous dead of Sovngarde, as the heroes of Valhalla are the warriors of Ragnarok.

But we'll see.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:21 am

Werecreatures like werewolves and werebears go to spend Eternity in Hircine's realm

That's not necessarily true. The (leaked) dialog I think you're referring to shows the guy isn't completely sure, and I'm not aware of any previous lore that mentions this. Only if they willingly bind themselves to the Prince in question would they go to their realm, and being infected with lycanthropy usually isn't done willingly. Same with vampirism.

It is an interesting idea, but I think Arkay may have a word or two about it.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:27 am

That's not necessarily true. The (leaked) dialog I think you're referring to shows the guy isn't completely sure, and I'm not aware of any previous lore that mentions this. Only if they willingly bind themselves to the Prince in question would they go to their realm, and being infected with lycanthropy usually isn't done willingly. Same with vampirism.

It is an interesting idea, but I think Arkay may have a word or two about it.

He sounds pretty sure. Sure enough to try and cure his own Lycanthropy because he believes it might hinder his chance to go to Sovengarde, he even says some prefer to spend an eternity in Hircine's realm. Since having the beastblood brings the person closer to Hircine, it makes sense for them to go there. And one may die doing a malevolent act, he may be sure to go to a Daedric Realm rather than Dreamsleeve. And Arkay can go kiss some ass, isn't it enough they died already? But in regards to Hircine, I mean he is the father of Manbeasts. It makes sense for them to die, perhaps being killed by a hunter or being fooled by the prey, they go to his Realm for eternity.

"We recognize the multiple threats that a strong tyrant represents -- breeds cruelty which feeds the Daedra Boethiah and hatred which feeds the Daedra Vaernima; if he should die having performed a particularly malevolent act, he may go to rule in Oblivion..."-Old Ways.

Look also "Sixteen Accords of Madness": in Volume IX Sheogorath got soul of executed madman, and in Volume XII soul of an orc warrior was sent to Sheogorath's realm by Malacath himself. Possible, daedric princes are able to overtake a corrupted soul (maybe that's why Molag Bal was so interested to ruin Melus Petilius' oath). There are also the other ways, like N'Gasta's business with Clavicus Vile.

It seems, that in general souls of daedra followers go to realm of their Princes after death. Somewhere was that khajiits goes to Moonshadow.

"Sheogorath reclaimed Neb-Crescen from the corpse and turned to walk away. Malacath began to stand, but kneeled again, knowing he had irreversibly damned his own offspring to the realm of Sheogorath, and mourned his failure as the sound of his son's hoarse pleas faded into the frozen horizon." Volume XII

"I was with him all along! When your time ended and mine began, your whispers in his ear were replaced with silence. I severed his link to that from which he found the most comfort and meaning, and withheld the very attention the creature so desperately craved. Without his mistress, this man's character could ripen under resentment and hatred. Now his bitterness is total and, overcome by a madness fueled by his rage, he feeds me in my realm as an eternal servant."-Volume IX.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:06 am

Not all the time the soul is recycled to that thing called the Dreamsleeve. Sometimes they remain on the mortal realm if there is unfinished buisiness or they go to a Daedric Realm forever if they worshiped/bound to that particular Prince.

It's of note that even souls which remain on the mortal realm still experience the effects of the dreamsleeve. All the afterlives experience the effects of the dreamsleeve, the difference is just in what you experience before you become erased.

What purpose does religion have then??
What incentives are there to lead a "good" life vs a murderer??

As I said above the religions do have an effect on what happens when you die, it's just that the effects are temporary (though you, as the one experiencing it, couldn't perceive that).

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:37 pm

How is it that Pelinal and all those ghosts in the Knights of the Nine DLC exist then and retain their memories? Where do they go? Why does Pelinal seem to have some kind of foreknowledge of the afterlife? He acts like he came back from a heaven of some sort and not that he was just wondering around. I mean he was a Shezarrine but that still does not explain Ser Amiel and the rest.

Also if Mythopeia exists could the people of Nirn create their own afterlifes by believing the gods make some kind of after life available?

I like the dreamsleeve though... :confused: a unique take on reincarnation.

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:44 pm

How is it that Pelinal and all those ghosts in the Knights of the Nine DLC exist then and retain their memories? Where do they go? Why does Pelinal seem to have some kind of foreknowledge of the afterlife? He acts like he came back from a heaven of some sort and not that he was just wondering around. I mean he was a Shezarrine but that still does not explain Ser Amiel and the rest.

Also if Mythopeia exists could the people of Nirn create their own afterlifes by believing the gods make some kind of after life available?

I like the dreamsleeve though... :confused: a unique take on reincarnation.

This is why I want more Sovngarde information. If my hypothesis of gods effecting some people's afterlives is proved correct then it may well be that Shezzar/Talos and the Nine held the spirits there as individuated beings. If it's not then I got no clue.

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:01 pm

Doesn't Sovngarde translate to "sleep farm" in one of the Scandinavian languages?

Of course Shor "built" it. He's the one who brought death, which sends mortal spirits to the Dreamsleave, back to the Aurbis. The Dreamsleave may not be his creation, but he's the one who caused spirits to go there.

Edit: Google translate (a very reliable source, to be sure

) translates "sleep farm" to "Sov gard" in Swedish.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:09 am

From Pelinal himself (skipping the parts where he just goes on and on about how svckish Umaril is):

Your prayers have woken me from my endless dream. Or perhaps you have entered my dream, and I still sleep. I think others have sometimes spoken to me, others like you, but my memory is doubtful. Perhaps the others came after you... All that has passed since my death is like mist that my mind cannot take hold of...

The other Knights were all ghosts with unfinished business and/or were bound to Mundus until their wrongs had been righted.

I've done some digging, and found this excellent explanation from proweler, a few years back (apologies if the formatting comes out wonky):

Arkay is the God of the cycle of life and death. We're born from the dreamsleeve and return to it on death in an endless cycle that is always new.

Birth:

We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon. - Mythic Dawn Commentaries

Mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth, without any divinity (unmantled) safe for the symbiosis with the special divinity of Nirn (our mother, Mankar wan't to destroy Nirn).

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate. - Nu-Mantia Intercept

This special divinity comes back in the intercept, Red Mountain (tower) holds Lorkhan's Heart (stone). Lorkhan's heart is also called the divine spark, our shared divinity. As such, we already much like the Daedra, we're separate parts of a larger divinity.

Death:

When people from different cultures all believe in an afterlife and all seem to get exactly what they expect, it is reasonable to assume that their experiences are influenced by their expectations. The Nords believe they go to a place called Sovngarde which can be translated as to a meaning that means as much as the Dreamsleeve, the sleep-enclosure. So we're already back the start.

"The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE?"either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk’s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is “lunar currency”." - Loveletter from the Fifth Era

This shouldn't be read as some Heaven and Hell afterlife were people who've done enough bad things end up in Oblivion. The AE literally is a connector and in the sermons it is often used as: "AYEM AE VEHK AE SETH", Almelexia and Vivec and Sotha Sil, Almsivi.

This connection is the soul. Normally, when a person is killed he experiences afterlife, when a Daedra is slain he experiences the void. A soul trap can force the soul to remain connected to a soulgem and a Necromancer can call back souls and force them to animate a body again.
Ghosts can return out of their free will if they have something that binds them, but often you'll see that they've already started to disintegrate and are starting to lose their memories and thoughts while they're being mangled and stripped from their identity in the dreamsleeve.

As I've already shown above, mortals are born from the dreamsleeve, it's their to their divinity so their allinged AE goes to Mundus and while the God planets of the Aedra are often interpreted as Aetherius, they are part of Mundus, they are the gift limbs.

It's also what allows Mankar Camoran to pick up his followers in his Paradise, they've given up Mundus ("destroy her forever") and become part of Mehrunes Dagon ("enter the demesne of Lord Dagon")

In addition what I didn't touch on here was the connection to aligned AE that the Loveletter mentions.

The Dreamsleeve is part of Mundus, but the lesser Daedra are bound to their Prince or to their own plane(t) orbiting the plane(t) of their Prince. This connection seems to be without the soft forgetfulness of the Dreamsleeve as each Daedra fears the experience (see: Spirit of the Daedra).

Now it's possible for someone to change this connection. In one of the dead-endings in Battlespire you could sell your soul to one of Mehrunes Captains, Umaril bartered his away with Meridia. Mankar suggests doing the same for Dagon.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:02 am

I think it's not implausible that werewolves go to Hircine's realm. Aside from the fact that he commands them and presumably created lycanthropy, we've seen that it's possible for those caught up with Daedra-related affairs to go to Oblivion when they die. This would also explain why werewolves, which are otherwise rare on Solstheim, manage to appear in huge numbers all of the sudden and then disappear without a trace after the Bloodmoon prophecy.

» Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:17 pm

The reincarnation, and "Dreamsleeve" components of the ES universe sounds awfully similar to "The Wheel", and "Pattern" lore present in Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" series. Where the author described the Wheel as something like the most advanced super computer imaginable. Capable of "weaving/recreating" timelines,destinies, and individuals from a momentary limbo in Tel'aran'rhiod. The mutable dream world for all souls to await being inserted in the "Pattern/reality" they're involved with...I don't know about you, but the similarities are glaring. Robert Jordan's first book was published in the year of 1990, while the first ES game was published in 1994, so going on a limb here and assuming the original ES developers were WOT fans?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:51 pm

I think it's not implausible that werewolves go to Hircine's realm. Aside from the fact that he commands them and presumably created lycanthropy, we've seen that it's possible for those caught up with Daedra-related affairs to go to Oblivion when they die.

The only problem is that Arkay prevents mortal souls from being tampered with like that, unless the person was willing (or the Necromancer's Moon intervened). That's why Clavicus Vile tries to get mortals to agree to deals where their soul is given over, as he can't just take them. Getting lycanthropy isn't usually done with the person willing, unlike purposely committing malevolent acts or letting your anger drive you mad.

I could agree that werewolves that give in to the beast and embrace their nature would get sent to Hircine, but I don't see how that could work for mortals that reject it but are still forced to change and kill (it's not like they have control, given all currently-known accounts).