Actually, there were others besides the French but you're right, it's not really important to the topic at hand. lol


In a sense, the NCR already is a superpower. So far, they are the only known nation in the North Continent. Besides the Legion, they have a professional army and a somewhat stable government. They even have journalism! lol Who besides the Legion can challenge them? So, yeah, I really don't see much of a connection there.


For some reason I just envisioned an NCR citizen shoveling Brahmin [censored]...

Anyway, Hanlon may not be running the show but he still is an importnat player. And I thought the Rangers chasing down "Ghosts" meant they were chasing something unatainable?


Both....are morons. Ceasar only sees the NCR as "Carthage" and is pretty much playing out his fantasies...while the NCR, meaning General Oliver, is not taking advantage of Ceasar's withdrawl.


Yeah, except you just stated my point. The General is a moron. He doesn't attack when he should. The entire Mojave campaign really wasn't neccesary as well.


Again, you just proved that the General is a moron.

That was a point I didn't get to, they are already a super power. So you could imagine what they would do if they suffered a Pearl Harbour like event, such as losing the Mojave to the Legion. If anything people should want NCR to win the battle. The NCR gets what they want. Plans to keep moving East get put on hold maybe indefinitely. NCR's advance would come to a very slow crawl do to bureaucracy and lack of policical leadership. It doesn't seem like NCR has rules for how long someone can be president. So doesn't it seem like a good thing if Kimball stays president? Kimball is the guy that doesn't want to go all out against the Legion. If the Legion takes the Mojave, you can be damn sure the guy that replaces Kimball will be hell bent on conquering all of the Legion.



I am sure there is something in Baja, but they aren't having any luck. So they rather run around in Baja then deal with the Legion. They rather send troops to protect the Brahmin then deal with the Legion. Kimball is the guy running it all. So for all those that don't want to see NCR become to powerful and take everything over. Than Kimball is your man

My point was that Caesar should have done what the Allies did in WW2. Pretend you are going to attack where the Enemy expects you. Oliver expected Caesar at the dam, just like Hitler expected the allies at Calais.

If an Enemy puts the bulk of his forces in one spot and leaves his flanks wide open. Why would you attack him head on? To make matters worse, your enemy knows full well you are going to attack him head on. Anywas, also not really relevant to the debate lol

Well you completely missed the point. After 50 years they will be able to get on their feet again and surround the Vegas area. Then they will negotiate with House and House will get some good deal like being able to control Vegas how he wants, ncr could then use the dam and gain some profits from house.

I have come to appreciate the NCR much more in recent playthroughs. And that's all I have to say about that.

I have nothing against NCR as an entity. but as it is in New Vegas, whether people agree with me or not, NCR needs Mr. House. The way I see it, Mr. House winning at Hoover Dam will stop NCR dead in it's tracks politically, which is just what it needs right now. Mr. House can do things NCR cannot, and NCR can do things Mr. House cannot. It's a symbiotic relationship. By Mr. House winning Hoover Dam, he will be able to restore the Vegas region of the Mojave to it's Pre-War splunder unlike anything NCR could ever do for Vegas, and NCR meanwhile could go on to secure it's borders, clean up their senate and political house, and focus on it's collapsing economy. The way I see it, NCR losing Hoover Dam to House is best because NCR and House lay the smackdown on the Legion, but NCR doesn't have to worry about another war on it's hands, and in time, when NCR expands, it can annex a Pre-War infrastructured region into it's territory.

In short, leaving Mr. House to his designs ensures he can build up Vegas his way, a better way, and in time when NCR can expand properly, Vegas will be a shining beacon for mankind just as Mr. House wants it, and NCR will finally own Vegas. NCR losing the Dam to Mr. House lets them win a lot in the future.

Martyr is absolutely correct in his anolysis.
He is just accidentally referring to some Mr. House dude(who was accidentally hit by a Baseball Bat) when he was actually meaning Courier 6 and his joyful AI assistant.
Don't be too harsh on him for that little mistake.

I view Indie as a cop out ending gameplay wise.

There's been suggestions that the Indie ending is actually the favored ending of the developers. It has some merit. I go indie because Yes Man basically becomes House, except without the idiotic plans to send people into space instead of improving the country they already have. Vegas run by Vegas, for Vegas, under the protection of Yes Man. House doesn't care about people, he only cares about his own glory.

I didn't think that until a few days ago, sure he saved some citizens of new vegas the night the bombs fell but that's because it's his city, he wanted to protect his city, not the people living in it.

some people? Minus those in vaults and in black mountain i'm pretty sure he saved everyone. And a city is more than buildings, it's people, it's the atmosphere, it's the experiences and the culture that inhabit those buildings, that's what Mr. House saved and is attempting to rebuild. the NCR, courier, yes man and legion has experienced nothing of pre-war vegas, how can they attempted to rebuild it?

So do I but it's Rome on the rise not the fall.

In many ways the history of the NCR is reminiscent of the history of the Roman Republic. The sack of Rome by Gallic Barbarians in 390BC (before it became a great power) can be seen to parallel the problems the fledgling NCR had with the Khans and then later they had their equivalent of the Pyrrhic War (280-275BC) with the Brotherhood of Steel when they confirmed their dominance of the region despite taking heavy losses to a qualitatively superior but numerically inferior foe.

The NCR/Legion War is the bloody Punic Wars during which Rome suffered the greatest defeat in its entire history at Cannae losing the most troops in a single battle that was to be seen until WWI but still emerged victorious (the NCR absorbed its losses and kept up the fight). In the long term the Punic Wars spurred Rome onto expanding it's sphere of influence across the Mediterranean and indeed this expansion continued through the late Republic (the era of Pompey Magnus and Julius Caesar) and into the Imperial period.

I'll draw one more parallel between the NCR and the Late Roman Republic. In the latter there was a great deal of social strife because the aristocracy owned all the land thus impoverishing the regular citizens. Now because Rome was a Republic with a certain degree of democracy the resentment of the plebians against the patricians found form in the advancement of populares (politicians and generals that sought power and influence through the support of the ordinary people not just the wealthy landed classes). In the NCR the Brahmin Barons are the patrician class and we can't really be too far away from a reformist-minded reborn Tiberius Gracchus, Gaius Marius... or Julius Caesar.

Finally for all the talk of the NCR expanding beyond it's means and trying to equate that with an overstretched Roman Empire note that Rome started it's long decline when Hadrian stopped the gradual expansion of the Empire. Under Trajan and his predecessors Rome was an ongoing success story that used the benefits of foreign expansion in terms of loot and resources to pay for infrastructure projects that increased trade and improved living standards.



I'd disagree in that the best move by House would have actually been to welcome the Mojave becoming a State of the NCR and then use his money to buy influence and steer the Republic in a new direction. We know that NCR politicians are open to being swayed by the wealthy (hence the power of the Brahmin Barons) so it wouldn't be a problem for him to not only arrange for the Mojave Representatives in the Senate to be his supporters (ie. on his payroll) he could have gradually won over the politicians from the other states.

He might not be a fan of democracy (although he had it wrong that liberal-democracy resulted in the Great War, the Enclave Shadow Government and its corporate friends are far more guilty) but if he's smart he'd be a fan of using it like Julius Caesar and others used "The Mob". Caesar was a wealthy patrician but he managed to get the people on his side by making some of their causes his own (such as reducing unemployment). Robert House, popular champion of those oppressed by the rich landowners and advocate of new factories with plenty of jobs for the people is a interesting notion!

I can't see House running into office himself but can see him bankrolling others to elected office very easily. Perhaps a popular, well-known Courier who was decorated for valour against the hated Legion winds up Senator for the New Vegas... and eventually President of the New California Republic as it enters a Golden Age.

Who says they'll attempt to rebuild it?

Ulysses' philosophy for example, it's time to move forward, not back. Leave Old World ideas in their grave that they dug, stop trying to revive something that's proven to fail.
For example, fossil fuels. They pollute and hurt the Earth's atmosphere. They're also created by organisms of old, way before man walked the earth. Yet we dig up this dead world that somehow died and we try to use it to our advantage, and it pollutes. It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up killing ourselves by doing this; things that are buried and died....well, maybe they died for a reason and were buried for a reason.
Ulysses' philosophy is pretty much the same. Capitalism, Democracy, Dictatorship. Those all had their turn and they've all failed before. Ulysses sympathizes with the Legion because Caesar at LEAST wants to freeze the world in a time long before the Great War, so the Legion's philosophy is arguably better at preventing another Great War, long term, though that's no guarentee. And what of Anarchy? Anarchy is what was produced by the Great War. When the bombs fell, leaders died and everyone had to learn to fend for themselves, do their own thing and not worry about leaderships or governments. Maybe there's a reason for this?



As for House, I too didn't understand it at first, but focus on his motivation, and on if a Great War were to happen again. You give House a pass because the fact of the matter is he saved thousands of lives that day. You give House a pass because what's done is done. The thing is though, House stands for capitalism. In capitalism, it's "survival of the fittest," basically. House surviving practically alone (in the big picture of things, as in Vegas being the surviving city) is no coincidence, it stands for the greed of capitalism. The moment [censored] hits the fan, what happens? Survival of the fittest. Sure, the people of New Vegas are currently a part of his "company," but if the [censored] hits the fan again, how many of them are expendable, and who is gonna have the power to decide who gets saved and who doesn't? House, that's who.
And his decision will be based solely on who's expendable. He may have saved the people of Vegas that day, but was that his motivation? His intention? No, it wasn't. That was a side-effect of his own selfish desires.

House is a very tempting option indeed. It's logical and practical, though cold and gives little to help "the little guy." But again following Ulysses' philosophy, maybe Capitalism (along with democracy) died out for a reason. Maybe it's because that "survival of the fittest" and overall attitude of greed, ALWAYS taking in more without any limit, is something that's bound to cause more Great Wars.

You make a good point, but you forget, in the grand scheme of things, House doesn't care about NCR, he cares about Vegas, and the general progress of humanity, and the latter being a very vague interpritation. For House that is something along the lines of, to describe it simply, reviving an infrastructure like RobCo.

I'm not in the mood to discuss semantic philosophy (Not to argue, but just have a discussion with you), but I picked this part because it's funny you should compare capitalism and government as 'The the two that died'. Because it sort of relates back to my post about how NCR and House are a symbiotic relationship. Have to much of one, but not the other, and in general terms bad things happen. But, I don't know, look at Freeside, it's state is more or less it's own fault. While we could argue that House isn't innocent in all this because he isn't helping Freeside, nor is he making it worse, so he's essentially 'status quo'. However, I think with House, he's the central cog in the machine, everyone else pulls together to make the machine more efficient.

If Freeside would focus on restoring the old world buildings it would have it's own economy. As for Old World ideas, I feel that to argue 'Old World ideas=bad' The things that caused the War were for the most part, the fault of America's Jingoism and hostility. America sabotoged China's oil rig, and in turn they assaulted Anchorage to take their oil. America in return? Let's attack China. If you look at it, it wasn't Capitalism, it wasnt Democracy, it was greed and desperation. However, as I pointed out....somewhere around here, not sure WHERE, the MFC,SEC,and ECPs would make GREAT fuel sources, but these were JUST discovered technologies, if only they'd come around earlier, the War would have likely been avoidable.

Not saying House is bad, because I dunno which side I would take.

Personally, after my long road, I look at House and Yes Man. House is logical and practical, but heartless and selfish. Yes Man is very risky and uncertain, but it gives everyone a chance, hope and freedom; after all, you say Freeside could flourish too if they'd get off their asses and go to work....But what if they don't want to? That's House's lifestyle, not theirs. Working for food, water and shelter, that's an obvious given that everyone needs to accept, and it's unclear how "guilty" House is in regards to the drug activity and safety of Freeside. Nevertheless, one can agree that House is clearly working BEYOND the standards of simply achieving food, water, and shelter, and perhaps that lifestyle isn't for everyone (Freeside?), and I personally can understand that. At that point, it's sort of a question of....which do you prefer: a thriving community at the cost of svcking the life out of others until they suffer and die, or a world where everyone faces the same perks, rewards, risks and dangers? Some might lean towards the former, some towards the latter. Some would call the first heartless and cruel for damning thousands of lives in the name of progress for the few, others might call the latter naive and illogical; too compassionate to develop a working plan to save SOME, ending up damning all in the process.

My post was more, some seem to address House as the do-all end-all perfect leader, and I used to too. When I did my Courier playthrough though, I decided I was picking the ending I thought was canon, NOT the one I wanted. This forced me to choose Indy Vegas (my interpretation of what's meant to be canon), and I spent a lot of time asking myself WHY would they make this the canon and how was this the "good" ending. After some thought, I've seen flaws in House too, though as I said, it's a personal choice between House and Yes Man.

And lastly, I try to look at the big picture. What ideas are you supporting when you support the nations? The NCR definitely supports freedom of speech, though it's also doomed to "settle for less," since everyone, including those without a brain, has the right to vote for President. Thus, it's never the best choice, but a compromise. The Legion provides stability and working as a community, but at the price of personal freedoms. And House? House provides progress and comfortable living for some, though not for all, and just like a real-world company, the driving force is greed. A company never does say "yep, we have enough, let's stop making money and let others have a chance." No no, the sky is the limit for a company. Maybe House truly does intend to limit himself to the Mojave, but the fact of the matter is that doing so would be counter-intuitive to his own ideals: he'd be limiting progress and productivity by doing so.


Dr. Hildern vs. Arcade Gannon. That really does sum up House and Yes Man. When I had that discussion with Arcade, I could easily understand both sides and I'm still not sure which one I would consider the "right" choice. Thus, all I'm doing is shining a light on the flaws of House, just to let people know they're there too.

True but people are workers and consumers and the NCR has the largest number of reasonably educated, reasonably wealthy people in the Post Apocalypse. You can't support a large complex industrial base without trained scientists, technicians and engineers and you need a certain population level to create and sustain them.

The President of General Motors used to say: "What's good for GM is good for America and vice versa". In House's case it's more like "What's good for the NCR is good for RobCo" but the principle still stands.

True, but much like the Legion, we can't argue much on what House would do, because his reign doesn't truly start until his victory at Hoover Dam.

Nevada and California are connected by rail, in fact the railroad has been complete largely. In fact the NCR used the railroads to transport quarry material to Boulder City where they then fortified the Dam. In any case it's been 6 years but that's not the point. The OSI report more than likely takes into account increases in volume of water back to the Core. Further if the Legion wins (which without the courier they probably would) then they won't have any water being pumped in.

It may have been six years but in real life the Colorado River Aqueduct which brings water to LA (and other cities in Southern California) took eight years to construct in real life (and 30,000 men which is a bigger ask for the NCR than the 1930's US) and the All American Canol (which takes water from the river to the Imperial Valley in California for irrigation also took eight years to construct.

My reading of the situation is that the OSI report spells out that if the NCR doesn't get the Mojave then they'll run out of water and starve. Given the volume of water there (and the far smaller population of the NCR than the region which survives off it in real life today) then there's no way that they could have a water shortage once the Mojave is secured.

The spice water must flow.

NCR will get destroyed if they go to war with the midwestern brotherhood of stee (that is if they consider it cannon) in my opinion the ncr is overdone House would be a pretty cool faction in future games...



He who controls the water controls the wasteland!

House is evil, well kinda.
Even Ulysees says somthing like, when the bombs started falling NV should have been wiped off the map, because it stood for old world ideas, blah blah blah. Basically saying NV would be a major target, but somthing stopped those bombs(he didn't know it was due to House) and he could have very well protected much more than he did. House let the world around him burn, quite literally. I can't say why, for sure, he let this happen but I'm sure it had to do with making his property(NV) stand alone after the dust settled. He wanted everything around him to burn, all so he could be number 1..... very greedy/ evil/ mischievous if ya ask me.

House is an OK kinda guy, but he most definitely has a few screws loose. Seriously, he could have saved many populated areas, but he didn't...... That's messed up man, just messed up.

If you listen to House he says that even if he wanted to save the rest of the world he wasn't able to. Besides out of all the people who knew the world was coming to an end, The think Tank, professor Calvert, Desmond, the enclave, the only other faction or person to try and save other people was the US government and at most they saved 100,000 people (112 vaults, designed to hold 1,000 people each although many of them failed, that figure is a rather optimistic one i think) all the while experimenting on them.

Mr. House on the other hand saved millions, he could of just fled to a vault, i mean there was one literally down the road from him but instead he rolled up his sleeves and got to work, not only saving the people but trying to ensure they would have a government, an everlasting police force and technological development after the war.

Yes, House says 'I knew I couldn't 'save the world', nor did I care to.' This shows that House isn't 'evil', if he is, then by definition so is the Enclave, and the Think Tank. What House did was an act of self preservation, and saving Vegas wasn't to be 'Number One' as Sublime claims, it's because in House's words. 'I grew up not far from Las Vegas, and though I travelled the Old World extensively, I never found another place like it.' Despite what others claim, it's not act of greed, though it could be misinterpretted as such with the casinos, but rather an act of love for a city he has known his whole life.

Theres a hell of a lot more to vegas than the strip.

My view exactly.

House not only views New Vegas as a core area from which he can rebuild pre-war life, but he also simply wanted to preserve the city out of devotion to it. Its his hometown, his birthplace, his home.

After playing Dead Money, I think there's potential for mankind to rebuild itself completely.

The NCR are the only people powerful and educated enough to actively discover and restore this technology.

I'm thinking of just letting Kimball die during this playthrough so that they can have a new president.