I personally love the NCR, and while I don't think they will win in the Mojave without the courier I still think they're the most interesting faction. My views aside I think it's necessary to establish some facts we've learned about California from New Vegas. From what I've gathered things in California are pretty good for the average person. Jas in Sloan notes that there are plenty of jobs on farms and mills and that things are "better than ever". In fact taken with the fact that Oliver's power armor troopers are dealing with what Hanlon calls small time raiders and that the Rangers mission has changed from dealing with despots to border guard and the NCR lands are very safe.

Now there is still more "crime" in places like Boneyard, noted by Razz, but overall law, order and taxes has been brought to California so much so that the miners in Sloan wonder why they are in the Mojave and the NCR troopers constantly whine about being in the Mojave. Many places have been annexed, like New Reno, and it's implied that San Francisco has been as well. In fact Hanlon notes that California used to be full of slavers and despots but now that's not the case. The Veteran Rangers are tied down in Baja in some time of conflict "chasing ghost" that's been going on for a long time. Also given Moore is in the Mojave now and not fighting the BoS back west it can be extracted that the BoS has been thoroughly defeated with the Mojave Chapter probably a good guide into their fate.

From those accounts it seems obvious the NCR is also spreading (to a lesser extent) in other directions. But something else is happening, the NCR is destroying the environment around it. Hanlon is the only in game source I could find on this but the NCR has very few remaining lakes and aquafiers. People keep saying that California has historically supported more people but

A. That's because of the Hoover Dam and irrigation
B. That's also because of artificial recharging of aquafiers like water purification something we don't necessarily know happens in the NCR today
C. Ranching is very water intensive, think about that, if the NCR's primary agricultural produce is brahmin that takes a lot of water

The bottom line is the canon and fact of life for the NCR is that they don't have enough water for their people without the Hoover Dam. Past that the OSI guy, Thomas Hildren, notes the NCR is only 10 years away from a food shortage. Now the real question at this point is why? Why is the NCR on the path of food shortage? They've had the Hoover Dam for 6 years, all of that water has been following to California for 6 YEARS and yet under current projections they still face a food crisis. The question still remains why?

This is my answer. From Walter Phebus we learn that Brahmin Barons like Heck Gunderson force other ranchers off their land, further Gunderson has a virtual monopoly on all brahmin going east. Now from that information alone it's easy to picture this happening all over the NCR, with larger brahmin farmers suppressing competition in the market place, with that happening there is very little incentive for entrepreneurs to even try to get into the ranching market meaning two things are happening.

A. There is less and less competition
B. New entries are discouraged from trying ranching

But the situation get's even worse because the quality of the meat can easily decrease because of less competition meaning the standards of meat being produced is lessened every day. But it get's even better, with Barons effectively in a cartel over the beef market they have a noose over the NCR government. Much of the NCR's tax revenue probably comes from Barons, further for clothing, armor, food, etc the NCR military is dependent on Barons. With all of this influence Baron's back politicians according to Hanlon and the politicians help their interest, which is the preservation of their monopoly.

So with a cartel situation in the ranching business a ranch doesn't have to be efficient with the water it uses or even all that productive. That means massive amounts of water are wasted. But the incentive for innovation is non existent in farming now, with the most successful farmer/rancher the person who controls the most land, not who develops the best techniques, is heightened by the massive amounts of labor available which further stops innovation in the farming techniques.

So that's basically it, the NCR will starve unless the barons land is distributed, broken up or taken.

What do you think? What is life like in the NCR? What is it's future?

NCR is dead weight.

Enclave were the wastes best hope, if Richardson or Eden succeeded in the plan then America would be better.

"What have learned about the NCR?"

Where to begin? That they are weak and we are strong, this much was known already.

@ Sir Dweedle I remember dying in F2 once, and Ron Pearlman said something along the lines of " Your battle against the enclave ends, and eventually the world ends"

They need to be beaten at the dam by Mr. House. The defeat will have Oliver and Kimball gone and they will probably stop expanding so much. They would hopefully slow down and then control everything they have. If House wins the dam I would expect that in 50 years time the NCR will be moving towards the Rockies, and would have absorbed Vegas by then.

The NCR will slowly crumble under their own weight. Good riddance!

There has to be a revolution (or Civil War) within the NCR. Hanlon wanted to create such a thing so that the soldiers and citizens can open their minds. Ironically, I see the NCR as Rome.

You expect NCR taking over Vegas fifty years after House wins the dam? With House in full control of Vegas and the Dam, he will make an almost endless amount of money and multiply the strength of his army several times in fifty years. In the meantime, NCR will be left with a failed military endeavor which will weaken the NCR's army and make the people of the NCR opposed to fighting for the dam yet another time.
They tried it once, almost got beaten by Graham and his legionaries which cost about a hundred NCR trooper lives. They tried it the second time, lost a lot of good men in the process and had to retreat because of House's overwhelming military force. They're never going to try again if House wins the dam.
They might try again if Caesar wins the dam, if given enough time to prepare before Caesar invades NCR territory himself. But even then it would be more of a revenge mission than a mission to secure the dam and its power.

And if you lived outside Control station Enclave or Raven Rock. You would be dead. It would be like a Jewish person saying "If only Hitler had won the war, things would be better!"

NCR would keep expanding. It will have troubles along the way, but in the end it will do well.

I tend to side with Ulysees on this topic.
"The Bear is diseased, and barely clings to life" meaning their corrupt ways, and hunger for more will ultimately bring them to their demise.

I can't remember the exact quote for what he says of the Legion, but it basically says they will claim all the land they can untill they hit the ocean, at which point they will turn on each other and ultimately be their own down fall.

Simply said, they'll kill them selves.
NCR is far too greedy, and Legion depends too much on war.

Edit---
@Styles, you really think the NCR will be ok? I mean maybe, and it's a big maybe, if they fall back/ retreat from all their poorly supported areas they could survive. It just seems they are far too greedy to do that, they just want more and more.
I just can't see them giving up their ways. They remind me of our leaders(USA) today. They start out with good intentions, but ultimately are consumed with greed/ power.

I picture the NCR as America when it was first getting established. Only this time its going East that is the future, not West.

NCR is powerful. It has alot of really smart people. It has taken on powerful enemies and won. It is a democracy and therefore flexable. The people of NCR aren't following a person, they are following an ideal, Freedom. NCR also has technology, such as trains.

They will have their share of bad leaders and face set backs. But I don't see them falling apart. Even if they lost the Second Battle of Hoover Dam.

NCR isn't like the Brotherhood following a strict Codex to the letter even if it spells their doom. They aren't the Legion, following a mad man because they fear him, and once that man is dead, the Legion will die. The NCR is strong, because its a nation of free people. Freedom is worth fighting for.

If anything a loss of the Mojave will make the people of NCR wake up and take the Legion seriously. That is what people seem to forget. NCR under Kimball isn't taking the Legion seriously at all. The loss of the Mojave would give the next president a reason to take on the Legion with everything NCR has. "The barbarians are at the gate" type deal. With this threat the sleeping bear will wake and be more united then ever.

Personally at the NCR's current rate of expansion, I believe that they'll be a "crash" at some point. Nations inevitably go through periods of good times and bad times. Usually "bad times" follow something along the lines of unimpeded expansion beyond the capacity of the nation to maintain its new land acquisitions.

If the NCR is as thinly stretched as we believe they are in New Vegas, then they will need to hold position and consolidate before expanding any further. They are certainly in no shape to penetrate the Legion's interior lands even if they achieve victory at Hoover Dam.


However I think there is a major difference between the two. For one, the NCR populace doesn't seem to be driven by the same sort of expansionistic attitudes which fueled America's expansion westward. Most seem to be sick of the NCR's constant wars in the east.

Furthermore, unlike the relatively malleable Native American tribes that were in America's way, there are significantly better equipped and organized factions block the NCR's path.

No doubt they would go though bad times, but I can't see it being then falling apart. Like America, it went through some really bad times, each time it came out of those times stronger than ever. NCR is still a young nation.

NCR isn't "thinly stretched."

A ) NCR political and military leadership isn't taking the Legion Seriously. They are containing the Legion not actively trying to conquer the Legion.

B ) We learned in Honest Hearts that the Legion's loss at the First Battle of Hoover Dam would have been far worse if not for what happened at the Divide. NCR lost entire divisions meant for the first battle. If they were there, there wouldn't be a second battle.

C ) Thanks to A and B, powder gangers were able to stop work on the rail road into the Mojave. So what troops that do get sent to the Mojave take along time, same with supplies.

I don't either. Not in the near future.

It would take a significant event to bring them down at this point. A civil war for instance, would cripple them.


At the moment they are. With the loss of the troops in the divide (which was apparently a significant number of men) they are military wise in a bit of a spot. Leveling with the Legion in terms of military power isn't really a sign of dominance. They're like a flow of water which has gradually snaked its way across a landscape, getting less and less momentum behind it and has now hit a small bump.

Before the divide incident and other such breaks in their supply line, no they weren't necessarily. But during the events of Fallout New Vegas they are undoubtedly feeling the press of maintaining such a large nation.

Yeah and if even one of a number of battles had gone a different way the USA would probably be two nations today. The NCR's problems won't inevitably cause a civil war but I would like to see it go that way. At a certain point if the NCR continues to hold together then the entire premise of Fallout becomes untenable because they've simply advanced too much and become too powerful for a post-apocalyptic setting in North America to have any meaning.

An NCR collapse would fit Fallout better in every way. Remember that line from the Fallout 1 intro about the European Commonwealth? It would fit if the states of the NCR went the same way.

I agree. A civil war would stir things up a bit, add a new faction or two, and keep the NCR from civilizing too much.

Yeah and if America lost one to many battles they would have never become a country. The point is hard times often make you stronger. The loss of the Mojave to the Legion, would be NCR's version of Pearl Harbour. NCR will finally take the Legion seriously and kick some ass. NCR is a "sleeping gaint" just like America in 1941.

The NCR has a large military, even after the Divide. Hell they have their best guys protecting Brahmin and hunting ghost in Baja. Their military is fine. The problem is the leadership, both political and military doesn't see the need to fight the Legion. They want to Contain the Legion.

Let Caesar attack the dam again, and we will kick his ass again. That is their thinking. Many here think General Oliver is a moron. He is far from it. Caesar is a moron. Attacking the same stong point, not once, but twice. You don't attack the Enemy where they are. You attack them where they aren't.

Same.

I mean, if I wanted to see a sort-of "Manifest Destiny" situation, I would just go and read books on American history. Something new has to happen to the NCR in a post-apocalyptic sense. A civil war and new "NCR" factions would make things interesting.

Well, the early US had quite a bit of outside help...


Once again, if you look at Europe and its situation at the time, of course the US would come up at the top.


Hanlon as well as other commanding officers would tell you something different.


General Oliver running away from me and setting up booby traps along with his Rangers tells me otherwise.

No argument from me. The hypothetical civil war wouldn't be caused by a defeat at the hands of the Legion but due to internal issues many years after an NCR victory at the Dam. It's even hinted at in New Vegas that further NCR expansion is going to hurt them more than it helps.

So what if they become more "civilized"? Do you guys really think NCR will take over all of America? As long as we don't jump in the timeline by several decades again, we don't have to worry about seeing NCR reaching the East Coast. What you should hope for is other factions becoming more "civilized" to counter the NCR. Even if NCR wins the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, it would be a very long time before NCR conquers the Legion, if they ever deside to.

Try to think "A Canticle for Leibowitz" Nuclear War. Everything starts over, rebuilds and then war again. But as long as we don't jump several decades again in the timeline, we won't have to worry about that.

Who knows, maybe Bethesda might rip something off from the old Fallouts again. I can see it now...

"It's been 80 years since your ancestor the Lone Wanderer traveled the Capital Wasteland..."




I'm betting all my money on Rivet City expanding...

If it gets to the point where the NCR comfortably dominates everything west of the Rockies what exactly would stop them from taking over all of America? Even if we stay at a point in the timeline where we wouldn't see the results of it (which is unlikely given the series proclivities for large time jumps) an ever expanding and succesful NCR still doesn't quite fit in Fallout.

Fallout is about conflict and human mistakes not Manifest Destiny in reverse.

Just because they've had the dam for a few years doesn't mean that the water is reaching the Core Region in large volumes yet. They would still have to repair or completely replace the old canols and pipes that carried the water from Nevada and then dig all the local irrigation canols.

The NCR is building infrastructure but we know they haven't as yet connected Nevada to the Core Region by rail (thanks in part to a lack of strong regional control and the Powder Ganger revolt) so why think the other infrastructure is complete? To be honest if I was in charge of the NCR I would have started the canols in the West and be working my way East because it'll give the military time to secure the source of the water by the time I get there.

Yeah, this is turning out like an American history class. Give us something different to compliment a "civilized" NCR. The North may have won the Civil War but it doesn't mean the NCR has to as well. Maybe the NCR can split in half?

Yes I know about the French. My point was they could have lost the war, even without the French. If just one battle went wrong. It was just a counter point to the idea that America could have become two nations if the North lost the civil war. Anyways not really important to the debate, agreed? lol



Yeah they became a super power after WW2, but my point was if you look at America's military power before Pearl Harbour to what it would become just a year later and then again at what it was in 1945, there is a world of difference. America pretty much went from having an army on paper, to have the largest most powerful army in the world. Over night America went from making ovans and cars, to Guns and Tanks. A loss of the Mojave to the Legion would have the same effect on the population of NCR, as Pearl Harbour had on America.


Hanlon isn't runnig the show. He even tells you that his best people are in Baja, chasing Ghosts. We learn from others that Brahmin are more important then fighting the Legion.


Caesar is the moron. NCR has the bulk of its forces at Hoover Dam. They aren't protecting their flanks. What does Caesar do? He sends the bulk of his forces head on towards the Dam. An attack the NCR knew full well was coming. It would have been easy to trick the NCR into thinking that the Dam was the target, and then come across at Cottonwood Cove and other places along the River.

Its like the invation of Europe. Hitler knew it was coming. He but the bulk of his forces and fortified the hell out of Calais. The shortist distance between England and France. The Allies made Hitler think that was where they were going to invade. Then we invaded in Normandy. We hit them were they weren't so to speak. (I know they were there but I hope people get my point).

If Caesar was running that show, he would have attacked head on right were Hitler wanted him to, at Calais.

The Legion will slow them down. If they become more Civilized, they might just stop the NCR cold. Again NCR isn't interested in conquering the Legion. They have showed no signs of this in New Vegas. Their only interest is to contain the Legion.

There is also the MWBoS and who knows what else is out there. Remember we have yet to only see a very small part of America.

It would be along time before NCR takes over all of America. Again, as long as Bethesda doesn't jump several decades into the future with the next games, it will be along time before you see NCR's Flag on the East Coast. Sure they may dominate the West Coast. But there is still alot of America out there.