What kind of factions do you want to see in coming Fallouts?

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 9:20 pm


I don't like the NCR, sure, but I ain't oblivious to the few positives they have.
When part of that 1% holds the power and highest form then yeah they are the "country".
I don't think I've met a single NCR person only out to help others.

Well in that respect neither is Ceaser, he kills on a whim, enslaves people and treats women as dirt.. human life has no value for him and for all its problems, people in the NCR at least value human life. Sure the 1% that controls the 99% of the rest may be corrupt and cares for nothing except them getting richer but those 1% of people have to constantly appear to be the exact opposite to the other 99%.... That is the one saving grace of democracy in fallout or in the real world.. it keeps the monsters from doing monstrous things
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Ashley Campos
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:53 pm


Its very Democratic to wage war on all that oppose your rule and don't want to be under your banner :nod:
Did the people of the NCR, like the farmers or shopkeeprs, get to vote Kimball etc in or did they get their position from rep with higher ups in the senate?
Tandi's hold on power didn't seem very democratic either - reigning for decades unopposed, surely she had some flaws that would creat opposition.
Old America was democratic, NCR is democratic - I see a pattern arising, maybe it will follow suit and have bombs dropped on it :)


I don't like the NCR, sure, but I ain't oblivious to the few positives they have.
When part of that 1% holds the power and highest form then yeah they are the "country".
I don't think I've met a single NCR person only out to help others.
Colonel Hsu seemed like the closest important person there is. And I think it is the people who make the country in acrappy republic.
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FITTAS
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:25 pm

I would like to see a civilian army like a revolt sort of thing or maybe the super mutant army would be good
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gemma king
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 2:07 am

Well in that respect neither is Ceaser, he kills on a whim, enslaves people and treats women as dirt.. To enslave them is to save them, give them purpose. As for how women are treated all we see is the mule-like carriers, and Siri who doesn't seem to be treated like complete dirt.
human life has no value for him and for all its problems, people in the NCR at least value human life. Human life has a value to Caesar, otherwise he would have wiped out the Black Foot tribe after saving himself, instead he formed the Legion in the hope of uniting the Wastes under the Bull, just because he wipes out the criminals and beyond helping doesn't mean he values life any less, he kills people in the lands he's conquering, so does every faction but at least he makes an example of them. NCR only value human life so long as it profits them.
Sure the 1% that controls the 99% of the rest may be corrupt and cares for nothing except them getting richer but those 1% of people have to constantly appear to be the exact opposite to the other 99%. That is the one saving grace of democracy in fallout or in the real world. Please explain how a faction leader needs to appear the opposite of his people. I don't see how acting like a rich stuck up [censored] will benefit your campaign when your population is poor and starving away due to the lack of compentency your leadership has. How is that democracy, it sounds like tyranny, what is so graceful about a leader who cares nothing for his peoples lifes? Look at how many the NCR has threw at the Enclave, the Brotherhood, the Khans, the Vipers, the Legion and who ever else - Their value for human life is beneign, all they do is throw numbers at their enemies instead of giving proper training and supplies.
It keeps the monsters from doing monstrous things. The people that try to hide how monsterous they are by masking themselves as good, are truly monsters.
Colonel Hsu seemed like the closest important person there is. And I think it is the people who make the country in acrappy republic.
Yeah he carries for his troops but what about the civilians. Of course it's the people, if they weren't there there would be no country, and no country is a peaceful country.
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Naughty not Nice
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 12:29 am

If the game is in the Southwest, I'd like to see the NCR/Legion battle an NCR type- Mexican faction. Maybe make them ghouls from Mexico City.
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GabiiE Liiziiouz
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 10:25 pm

To enslave them is to save them, give them purpose. As for how women are treated all we see is the mule-like carriers, and Siri who doesn't seem to be treated like complete dirt. Well thats quite a statement my friend, wonder what all those people who have actually been slaves thro history would think about that. As for women, we know that they are no longer considered to be suitable for anything other than being slaves and making babies once part of the legion. (Not a feminist but still it just dont sound right to me) Human life has a value to Caesar, otherwise he would have wiped out the Black Foot tribe after saving himself, instead he formed the Legion in the hope of uniting the Wastes under the Bull, just because he wipes out the criminals and beyond helping doesn't mean he values life any less, he kills people in the lands he's conquering, so does every faction but at least he makes an example of them. NCR only value human life so long as it profits them. Criminals are only a small number of those whose blood he has on his hands, he is not averse to killing innocent women, children, old people from weak tribes. Neither does he have any qualms about killing his own men who have failed in battle or to see them fight each other to death for promotions.Remember that the NCR only kills those who face them with guns in their hands meaning those who fight them and not every man women and child in their [censored] enemies tribe and this is what I meant when I said that they at least value human life well far more than the Caesar thats for sure. Caesar may not have killed the blackfoots but thats only because he needed them, their enemies he either enslaved or killed, the same with all tribes he took over and if you did not know this-- while Calhoun a fellow member of FOA who was on an expedition with him was spared because Caesar wanted him to deliver a message to the FOA, the other six members of his FOA party were killed by him for no reason at all. He formed the legion because he had grand delusions about himself and about mankind and because he had the charisma and ruthlessness needed to carry out his plans and create a vast legion of slaves. Please explain how a faction leader needs to appear the opposite of his people. I don't see how acting like a rich stuck up [censored] will benefit your campaign when your population is poor and starving away due to the lack of compentency your leadership has You didn't get what I was saying there. I meant that the people at the top of NCR have to pretend like they care.. like they give a [censored] even though may not and they do that because its a democracy and the people have the power to bring new people in (who may be just corrupt and greedy) and in so pretending that they give a [censored], they can't just take away all of the peoples money or land or whatever they want. They can tax it citing all sorts of bs but there's only so much bs that the people will take.


While you can argue that the NCR is far from a righteous nation which has only the good of its own people and of the people outside its borders at its heart.. Ceasers Legion on the other hand cant be called anything but an evil force which uses brutal force on the weak, kills them, enslaves them so the new ones can be slaves just as they already are and all this for their delusional leader who at the end of the day has no respect for human life. To him, all males except him are just tools/weapons to be used in war against his adversaries and women are to be used to provide supporting roles for these tools becoming midwives, healers and child bearers.

so yea I do stand by what I said and no being a monster is not worse than doing monstrous things because when you do them people around you feel it and not unless then..
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kirsty joanne hines
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 6:42 pm

Ceasers Legion on the other hand cant be called anything but an evil force.

Yeah they can.
They're a dark nation that the wasteland needs to bring peace to the world and for society to rebuild under one rule.
I broke your argument. :bunny:
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Sun of Sammy
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:48 am

i would like to see a faction similiar to the outcasts but on as big a scale as the brotherhood is
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Danel
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:54 pm

Yeah they can.
They're a dark nation that the wasteland needs to bring peace to the world and for society to rebuild under one rule.
I broke your argument. :bunny:

Gabe we've been over this before but until you can actually support this contention that the wasteland needs Caesar's Legion with something from the games it's just your opinion. Which you're more than entitled to, but opinions, unless backed up by something, are not counterpoints.

If anything Caesar's Legion destroys societies (New Canaan) and is slowing rebuilding by forcing groups like the NCR to devote so many of their own resources and attention to simply to fending off the Legion.
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 9:03 pm

i would like to see a faction similiar to the outcasts but on as big a scale as the brotherhood is
So the Brotherhood? Since Lyon's Brotherhood have basically become outcasts from the chapters in the west.
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Cat Haines
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 1:22 am

I would really like for the MWBoS to make a return so we can finally get a canon ending and explore the MW again.
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TWITTER.COM
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 4:03 pm

Gabe we've been over this before but until you can actually support this contention that the wasteland needs Caesar's Legion with something from the games it's just your opinion. Which you're more than entitled to, but opinions, unless backed up by something, are not counterpoints.

If anything Caesar's Legion destroys societies (New Canaan) and is slowing rebuilding by forcing groups like the NCR to devote so many of their own resources and attention to simply to fending off the Legion.
Didn't we have a long discussion once? And it ended with no clear victor?
I'd rather not get into it again.
Legion fans has to prove a loooooot of things while NCR fans can just point at NCR and go "Like that".
I've gone over this tons of times before, and you've read some of it, maybe a lot.
I'm not gonna go into this discussion again because it just turns into a Legion bashfest, and no matter how much evidence we point out, no matter how much speculation we go through, no matter how much discussion is made, none of it will matter, cause not a single NCR supporter will turn around to our side and very very few will agree that they understand why we support Legion.


I know that it might seem like I'm just running away or trying to make up an excuse for not having to explain my reasons for supporting Legion, but frankly, after the discussion I've been involved with I just simply don't give a flying [censored] anymore.

And you want evidence?
Talk to Legion.
Talk to other NPC's.
Listen to what people who have been to Arizona has to say.
And keep an open mind.

I've presented evidence before, and it's always been shot down or ignored.
I refuse, absolutely refuse to enter another Legion discussion with anyone on these forums.
Cause the feedback we Legion supporters get is disgusting.


[edit]

Oh and:

"Ceasers Legion on the other hand cant be called anything but an evil force."
"They're a dark nation that the wasteland needs to bring peace to the world and for society to rebuild under one rule."

Legion is a darker shade of gray faction. Fact. (And if pitch black then a "dark nation" is even more fact")
They attend to bring peace to the wasteland. Fact. Go talk to Caesar, he says it himself, peace, through war.
And he destroys all other cultures, religions and societes and forces people to integrate into one society so that it can rebuild in peace. Fact, as evident through a lot of dialogue with Caesar and members of the Legion as well as the Great Khans ending slider.

Have fun.
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No Name
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 12:10 am

Yeah they can.
They're a dark nation that the wasteland needs to bring peace to the world and for society to rebuild under one rule.
I broke your argument. :bunny:

I agree. Sure we can't say for sure that the Legion is building a "civilized society" because we don't see any Legion towns. Rumor has it Bethesda wouldn't let Obsidian make a Legion DLC which would have been in Legion lands. All we know is that Legion lands are secure and pretty much free of raiders and crime.

I find it hard to believe that the whole Legion would be a large army of slavers bent on killing and enslaving.

Some would say the Master was evil, but he was doing it for his version of "the greater good."

That is the great thing about Fallout, Good and Evil isn't cut and dry.. Well not counting Fallout 3.
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JUan Martinez
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 5:42 am

Didn't we have a long discussion once? And it ended with no clear victor?
I'd rather not get into it again.

Fair enough.

Legion fans has to prove a loooooot of things while NCR fans can just point at NCR and go "Like that".
I've gone over this tons of times before, and you've read some of it, maybe a lot.
I'm not gonna go into this discussion again because it just turns into a Legion bashfest, and no matter how much evidence we point out, no matter how much speculation we go through, no matter how much discussion is made, none of it will matter, cause not a single NCR supporter will turn around to our side and very very few will agree that they understand why we support Legion.

Well here's where you're proving my point for me. Legion fans have to "prove" a lot of things because the stuff required to make the Legion a decent option when compared to House or the NCR simply isn't in the game. The only positive thing we actually know about the Legion is that it's territory is regarded as the safest around. That's about it as far as I can recall. Everything else is speculation usually along the lines of "the wasteland needs the Legion to rebuild" or "the NCR is just going to fall apart but the Legion won't" or "the Legion's methods are necessary" but the games never give any reason to believe that these things, or the many other things I've heard Legion supporters claim, are true.

Again you're entitled to all these opinions but the absence of any support for them in the actual game is precisely why the Legion is the least popular faction amongst players by a wide margin.

I know that it might seem like I'm just running away or trying to make up an excuse for not having to explain my reasons for supporting Legion, but frankly, after the discussion I've been involved with I just simply don't give a flying [censored] anymore.

And you want evidence?
Talk to Legion.
Talk to other NPC's.
Listen to what people who have been to Arizona has to say.
And keep an open mind.

I've presented evidence before, and it's always been shot down or ignored.
I refuse, absolutely refuse to enter another Legion discussion with anyone on these forums.
Cause the feedback we Legion supporters get is disgusting.

No I understand. These arguments can get very tedious and repetitive. But believe me I have looked at all the evidence the game provides of the Legion's positive qualities and again beyond Legion territory being the most secure I don't recall finding much else.
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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:37 pm

Aren't these faction vs faction arguments a tad biased given that the amount of presentation of 'em is not equal and thus not really fair? I mean, one can see much about how NCR and House operates, but there's far less Legion shown. At least from what I recall (haven't played the game in a while).
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Lucy
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:53 pm

Again you're entitled to all these opinions but the absence of any support for them in the actual game is precisely why the Legion is the least popular faction amongst players by a wide margin.
... All of it is subjective... Some look at Legion and say they will fall apart. That is subjective.
Some of us look at NCR and think they will fall apart, that is subjective.
The future isn't told to anyone who plays New Vegas, even the ending sliders doesn't tell enough.

So you want evidence for why NCR will fall apart?
There... There is no clear evidence.
That's the point.
There is no clear evidence that Legion will fall apart either but a lot of people are so obsessed with the idea that they can't imagine it happening any other way.

So, how are any of us suppose to know which faction would fall apart by what?
It's all speculation.
You can't demand evidence for any of this from us nor the game.
Hell, if the game was blunt and said "X 'IS' gonna fall apart" then I could give you an example, but you're asking me to give you clear evidence that isn't there, for either side.

If there was, then there'd be no point in supporting the other faction.
But it's left open for us to speculate on it and make up our own minds
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Rachel Eloise Getoutofmyface
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 9:56 pm

... All of it is subjective... Some look at Legion and say they will fall apart. That is subjective.
Some of us look at NCR and think they will fall apart, that is subjective.
The future isn't told to anyone who plays New Vegas, even the ending sliders doesn't tell enough.

So you want evidence for why NCR will fall apart?
There... There is no clear evidence.
That's the point.
There is no clear evidence that Legion will fall apart either but a lot of people are so obsessed with the idea that they can't imagine it happening any other way.

So, how are any of us suppose to know which faction would fall apart by what?
It's all speculation.
You can't demand evidence for any of this from us nor the game.
Hell, if the game was blunt and said "X 'IS' gonna fall apart" then I could give you an example, but you're asking me to give you clear evidence that isn't there, for either side.

If there was, then there'd be no point in supporting the other faction.
But it's left open for us to speculate on it and make up our own minds

Agreed that's my point. We don't know the NCR will apart. We don't know the Legion will fall apart. So when Legion supporters say stuff like that they're relying on speculation that's unsupported by any evidence. Whereas based on what we actually know the Legion is a terrible choice compared to House or the NCR. Now you can argue that the game gives insufficient attention to the Legion compared to the other factions (and that's true) but that doesn't change the fact that the Legion as presented does not hold up well and having to rely on speculation to fill in the positive gaps isn't proving a pro-Legion argument it's just proving the weakness of the pro-Legion argument in the first place.
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Conor Byrne
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 6:30 am

Hey Gab and Okie, take it to PM :foodndrink:
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Joey Avelar
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 4:58 am

Post Mortem.
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Mason Nevitt
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:36 pm

Aren't these faction vs faction arguments a tad biased given that the amount of presentation of 'em is not equal and thus not really fair? I mean, one can see much about how NCR and House operates, but there's far less Legion shown. At least from what I recall (haven't played the game in a while).

I don't see what fairness has to do with it. Whether or not the Legion content in New Vegas was equal to the other two factions doesn't change what we know about them. I mean J.E. Sawyer came up with the Legion I doubt he deliberately presented them in an innacurate light and I've never seen anything from him (he answers a lot of questions about New Vegas on his Formspring) that indicates that what we know about them is wrong or unfair beyond the misogny thing.
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Conor Byrne
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 4:22 pm

I don't see what fairness has to do with it. Whether or not the Legion content in New Vegas was equal to the other two factions doesn't change what we know about them. I mean J.E. Sawyer came up with the Legion I doubt he deliberately presented them in an innacurate light and I've never seen anything from him (he answers a lot of questions about New Vegas on his Formspring) that indicates that what we know about them is wrong or unfair beyond the misogny thing.

That's true. Fairness has nothing to do with it if you talk strictly about what's in the game (that'd make a short discussion...). But when you strive to the speculative territory, which will almost always happens in these discussions, you have unequal information to speculate with. That's what I meant. You read Sawyers Formspring so you know he was going to add Legion territory locations in the game, but ran out of time to do so. Not a deliberate lack of presentation, but an unfortunate one. Who knows what sort of info that would've given. I asked him to outline what he intended, but he never replied.

I'm not taking any sides with this, though.
Not intentionally at least. :laugh:
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Steeeph
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 3:16 pm

Oh oh oh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQRrXG3CXis
12:58

"...from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects it's citizens, and the power of it's dictator."

Legion will have citizens!
There has been very little mention of Legion having citizens now but Caesar himself states that with the synthesis there will be citizens in Legion!

I can't believe it took me that long to figure it out.
It has no direct relation with the thread of the latest debate, but I thought it'd be interesting to point out.
Maybe we don't know a lot about the Legion currently, of how many citizens they have or if they have any at all really.
But Caesar in that video (or the previous one in that Let's Play) states that they have cities of their own, though nothing like Vegas and here he states that it will have citizens if it not already has them.

:D

And uhm... Yeah... Maybe we should get back on topic.
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sam smith
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 7:02 am

maybe some sort of immigrant faction that had traveled to america by an old navy ship but the ship got blown up just off the coast and olny half of them survive then they can tell you whats been happing in there country and why they left it. then you could help them set up a small village by getting them certain stuff and taking out another faction or help that faction take out the immigrants
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Hayley Bristow
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 4:37 am

I want to see an army of crab people.
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Jhenna lee Lizama
 
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Post » Wed May 02, 2012 3:56 pm

this factions i wana se

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/MutantUA?from=Main.MutantUA
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Hayley Bristow
 
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