Why are there undead in Tamriel?

What is the source of their power?

Are humanshape undead (skeletons, zombies) once-humans who were cursed in some way?

What about conjured ones?

I feel like they were just "thrown into the world" whereas daedric beings and most other enemies have rich histories.

Thank you.

Undead as in zombies or vampires? Vampires have a divine curse.

Zombies are conjured up with magic I believe. Same goes for skeletons. Maybe taken from Oblivion, maybe taken from a dungeon or cave. It doesn't mean they were cursed in life though.

The source of their power seems obvious, magic.

I'm pretty sure that conjuring skeletons/zombies is a placeholder for making some. Check the links in the Necromancy section of the Lore Buff Guide.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-preparation-corpse, not a bunch of raving loons going SOUL GEMS AHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA or other weird [censored].

No, conjured ghosts/zombies are distinct from the ones you find walking around in necromancer lairs, which are permanent summons. It's the difference between pulling Daedra out of the void to serve you for a moment and undergoing lengthy rituals to bind them into your service in a more long-term capacity. There's not really any lore on summoning the corporeal variety of undead from what I've read, but I've seen a theory or two on where they gather matter from. But conjuring is definitely something that is distinct from more permanent binding and it's recognized as such by NPCs, who use it in the same way in spite of environmental evidence everywhere of using alternative methods to create more enduring servants.

Frankly I figure it's the spell itself that gives them substance, same as summoning bound weapons and armor. It's just a temporary construct that ceases to have meaning the instant the spell expires.

Going to have to agree with LN, I find the mechanics of getting zombies and skellies to be nothing more than EZ-Necromancy. Summoning ghosts, now that's summoning souls from the Dreamsleave, likely.

If it's true then it's a god-awful representation of it. And even ghosts have some substance, given that they can be affected by physical matter of the correct properties and they leave behind remains in the form of ectoplasm. Where does that come from?

I'm not convinced, personally. Maybe new lore in Skyrim will shed light on it.

Would also be extremely poor story-wise. The Mages Guild banned necromancy and kicked out a large number of their members over it, yet they'll freely sell "summon" zombie/skeleton spells, and not bat an eye when you do it in front of them?

I've always been amused by the Redguard mage in Cheydinhal (forget his name) who goes on a long rant about having prejudices against conjuration and illusion. He makes a point that summoning the dead, trafficking with daedra, and messing with the minds of the living is just bad and wrong. He will then offer to teach you how to cast the Summon Skeleton spell if you peruse his spell list

Regarding what we know, I would say it's been said, with maybe very minor things not said which escape me at the moment. They're animated dead without souls. And I would agree with Bitter, as well, regarding vampires, and would arrogant try to convince anyone otherwise, which has labeled me somewhat of a heretic in the past (figure of speech. I tried to biologically, though not realistically, describe how the curse may work for vampirism. Still disagree, even with MK regarding it. Anyways, another topic.).

Vampires themselves, while sometimes described as Undead, do not qualify given the other examples of what we know to be undead. Even for the simple fact that vampires can have children. But at the end of the day, I would say they're (the undead) merely, reiterating, soulless animated corpses.

As for ghosts/ghouls, etc, I am not familiar with them except the very basics, which has been said. I find it impossible for ghosts to exist in TES because I don't know how they fuction, I don't know what they're made of, or how they sustain their forms. I am not saying they don't exist - they do exist. What I am saying is that I don't know how, whereas I know how a corpse or skeleton is animated. Also, Ghosts seem to be able to communicate and retain information, they can interact with people, unlike the rest of the undead. I would then, perhaps, propose in that they are no undead but spirits, just categorically. They're not even part of the physical aspect of the former living. The only things that can hit them are Silver/magic, as well, if I am not mistaken. So there's a lot of rules on the operations of them.

So how does the soul of the living become a ghost? I won't even attempt to formulate a thought on it. Partly because I am tired, and the rest because, well, I am tired, lol. I can't think of anything at all. Okay, I lied, slight % because I don't know much about it. So if ProwProw (lol), LN, Hellmouth, etc wanna shed any ideas or light, I'd love to hear it. I tried to search in the lore section, but couldn't find it.

Or maybe ghosts are souls, but we're merely labeling them differently? Hm... For instance, take some of the Blade ghosts from OBV. It's more like they're the souls, not ghosts of those that died. So is a ghost merely a bound (whether covalent or hydrogen (obvious joke, but still meaningful)) soul? What is a wraith, then? They seem to be just more powerful Ghosts, but what makes a Ghost a wraith? Perhaps its a vengeful ghost? Someone whose more powerful because their emotions? You know, like a poltergeist.

I am making a lot of horrible speculation on everything today, aren't I?

Well here is more. I don't consider Lich undead. Yes, they're a decaying body, but they have their essence. They're not just merely animated corpses, they're still "people". Yes, the body is... decaying. But I guess I am kinda "strict" on my classifications. I would really only consider those that are: Without a soul present, whether contained or fabricated out of.

I really should stop talking about of my ass when I am tired like this. Makes me seem a fool.

It was Trayvond the Redguard (what a name) and he sells Summon Scamp, but yeah, an amusing oversight nonetheless.




You're making a lot of incorrect speculation today. Undead most definitely have souls:



Vampires have always been described as undead, because that's what they are. They're certainly not alive by the standard definition. And it really doesn't matter that they can sire children, as there's nothing in Molag Bal's curse that says they can't. Liches, again, are undead beings of their own making. Both of them have souls, as evidenced by the fact that you can trap said souls.

I don't know, I still don' t remember it being mentioned zombies or skeletons have souls. I DO remember, vaguely, something regarding it, and so I don't say they don't with full confidence, but oh well. Even with the transcript you provided, I am still not inclined to agree. Especially since Dunmer summon ancestral ghosts, not zombies or skeletons to do their work. So it seems contradictory to use an example of a race that commonly summons the ghosts of ancestors, and doesn't seem to use it with bones or flesh.

But speculation is speculation. It technically can be correct or incorrect, but its speculation. Specifically, mine is based on what little we do know. So who knows?

Regarding Vampires, I know there are many within the TES universe which regard them as undead, but I wouldn't personally if I were a person within TES. How is a vampire undead when they don't seem to die? Yes, there's the mythos of "died and rise again as a vampire" that is even seen in game after 3 days, but I don't believe it is literal, but metaphorical. If you've seen some of my posts before regarding it (I think on my older account, which means the posts were from 2009 or so, I think), you'd see how I come to believe that and attempt to explain it (One of the things that garners distaste for my posts lol). Also, what other undead can reproduce? There is no other undead like a vampire in any manner. There's simply not enough evidence for me to classify them as undead, whereas there's plenty for others. This is personal preference, though I also would like to suggest that it is open to debate lore-wise.

For Lich, I find it hard for myself to argue that they are not undead, even though I stated otherwise. It is entirely a person, with their own body, and etc. The only difference is that they live longer/indefinitely. They do not appear to have any biological functions (what COULD be considered biological within the TES universe), or anything else. But I can't in good faith call them undead given they are not dead and have not been dead. How can you call something that cannot die, due to age, I.E. a vampire in our world being called undead) undead? Why can it simply not be a living immortal? Zombies are animated dead, and this is what it means to me to be undead. It means not dead but not alive. Well, to be dead means to no longer be animated (alive), and living means to be animated (not dead). Things that are not alive typically are not animated, they're static. And yes, this is the TES universe and blah blah blah. The point I am trying to make is that Vampires, and somewhat for Liches, are more living than dead, especially since they have a soul and are conscious of their environment. Or, in other words, how can a living person (who became a lich) become suddenly undead yet still be able to live in the corpse? Is he living or dead? Paradox?

What are the exact criteria for being undead? I provided my opinion. And it's not an attempt to rewrite or change TES Lore, and a lot of people mistake me for trying to completely throw it aside, what I do when writing about Lore is how I would feel if a person within it, or that I treat the lore as it is our real world and then start writing.

With vamps, I wouldn't classify them as being undead, though it is easy to see why they are. After a person is infected, they seem to "die" after the third day, then wake up as a vampire. You ask me, I say they go into a form of hibernation that LOOKS as they the person died. Plus, you can't cure undeath, save for dying. If that was the case, curing vampirism would be curing undeath. However, one should constantly remember that vampirism is a daedric curse.

As for zombies and skeletons, a good portion are just reanimated puppets for all intents and purposes. There are also cases of someone just refusing to go to the Dreamsleeve and remain as a pile of bones, a sack of decayed flesh, or a ghost. But, your run of the mill zombie and skeleton is going to be nothing more than a puppet either controlled or running on auto-pilot.

With liches, the body is dead, but the soul isn't. The process of lichification is almost like enchanting. Except instead of binding a soul to a weapon or item, the person binds their soul to a dead body, thus allowing the soul to stay in the fleshy shell indefinitely.

Now, as to what qualifies as being undead, I'd say the best definition is a formally alive being that is still moving and acting, despite metabolic functions ceasing. Vampires still have metabolic functions, while liches, skeletons, zombies, and ghosts do not.


Now, as a fun tidbit, there is a section in the Lord of Souls book that does show zombies can think, somewhat, and talk to their master. My guess is that the master infused a soul into a dead body, instead of magically zapping it to reanimation.

Could it be possible, then, that Lich are neither living or dead, nor undead? The body is dead, but the soul is still "living". The only difference between the living sorcerer and the lich sorcerer is that his body is dead. But he is still alive? I mean, what makes someone alive? If we count zombies and skeletons as undead (and the dead counterparts which are not summoned/resurrected (I.E. normal corpses), then what is a Lich since the sorcerer is still inside his body as a soul? The normal corpses are without a soul and therefore dead, as the soul is in the Dreamsleeve. But they become undead when they are necromancy'd up, which would be reanimated.

But as you speak about the Lord of Souls, is it simply that the body is animated and has semi-normal functions (mobility, etc). I wouldn't doubt they could communicate, perhaps by electrical impulses (Magic) or telepathy. It's like zombies in our world, they still can think, they do have hunger, etc, but are not generally regarded as having souls. But if adding a soul to the body, wouldn't it be something entirely different? I mean, it'd allow the body to become fully alive, right? Otherwise, what is the purpose of shoving a soul into the corpse, unless you're trying to create something far more advanced than a zombie? You're looking for a highly intelligent servant, IMO, in that case.

As I said, for something to be classified as "undead," it has to be a being whose metabolic functions have stopped, yet continues to move, act, and think (sometimes). The difference between a living sorcerer and a lich, is that the sorcerer still has metabolic functions and therefore alive, while a lich is a moving dead body that can still think. And technically, any undead that is independent and can still think for itself is a lich. It just so happens the majority of them are powerful sorcerers, as they're really the only ones that can successfully lichify themselves.

And with the part I mentioned, that seemed to be the case in that part of the story; the zombie was acting as an intelligent servant.

Also to note, in Redguard, the Prince's soul was bound to a soulstone, and there was the goal of trying to resurrect the prince. However, I get the idea they wanted to place him in a body that'll continue being alive, instead of an undead shell.

Well, right, that's the difference. But it is the still the sorcerer in every capacity aside from metabolic functions. His soul is still there, as well. Simply based on that, I'd consider him alive because his soul. But we don't really have any other example of something like that AFAIK. His body is dead yet he is still there, and intentionally. If his body is dead, normally (like a skeleton or zombie), his soul would go to the Dreamsleeve, right? Well, a Lich stays. So would part of the lich would you say is the... Lich? The soul or the body? The body is basically a mummified zombie, being possessed by a soul. So a Lich is undead because the body? Do we simply attribute its status based on the body itself, not the soul? I mean, I like that idea, because it means a Lich is a possessed zombie, meaning its still undead. That could also mean a zombie can potentially become a lich. I mean, a sorcerer could put his soul in a random zombie, right? Maybe? Idk... but I like where I am going with this.

Base it on the body for something to be considered between undead and alive. Something being dead means metabolic functions are not working, and it's not moving and acting. Undeath is just without the "not" part in the last sentence.

Plus, gingers don't have souls, yet they're alive.

We've completely neglected to speak about ghosts, then. Are they merely spirits?

Souls that haven't departed to the Dreamsleeve (ex. dwemer ghosts) due to a curse or something that's really pissing them off thus causing them to stay, or were souls ripped from the Dreamsleeve (summoning spells).

We don't have evidence for that. Currently, the only lichification process we've seen required the necromancer to perform rather lengthy rituals upon their own (living) body, with their body dying at the conclusion.

I think it is possible, in theory, to be able to stick one person's soul into another person's body, but not your own soul to another body without outside help.

Though, I am curious how and why that zombie in Lord of Souls was able to talk and had some mind of its own. I'd like to think it was because its master stuck a soul in it to create an intelligent servant, but I don't know.

Correct. I was speculating whether or not you could force your soul, or another, into another body, though. Like, say, you're a fairly powerful sorcerer, but you want the body of this legendary, godly one who died, so you steal his body. With the same ritual or another, could you do it? Makes me think of ol' Manni, now.

WIth the same ritual? No. Different ritual? No one's bother to tell us of a different one.

Possible, in theory, but as I mentioned above, it's a process that'll require outside help and hasn't really been explored. At most, we got plans for reviving the prince in Redguard by grabbing the soulstone he was bound to and trying to shove the soul back into his body. But, things didn't go as planned.

Also, lichifying oneself is hard enough as is. Plus, Mannimarco was highly powerful in his own right, but I don't think inhabiting the body of a person who was very magically talented will boost someone. Performing magic depends on the user, not the body. It just happens that liches have an indefinite amount of time to practice and research.

Isn't magic contained in the body, though? When you say "depends on the user", that refers to the body, right? Or what part? I admit I am poorly educated on this part, the Dreamsleeve/souls, etc. But if it depends on the user, if that user dies and you inject your soul into it, who is the user of the magic? I mean, yes, you, because you're controlling it, but... Idk.

Also, what about Wraiths? Vengeful Spirits, like Poltergeists? How does one become a Wraith, and then Gloom Wraith? What would the differences be?