What I learned about the Skyrim perk system after 30 hours p

Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:25 am

you're dead wrong about dual wielding. Nothing has higher damage output. NOT EVEN CLOSE. a dual power attack consists of three attacks, all of which involve both weapons. In reality, dual weilding power attacks are the same as 6 one handed power attacks.
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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:28 pm

i kill things, point blank, before their attacks make contact with me, in expert and master (I lowered it to expert, because i don't like enchanted weapons)
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Brad Johnson
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:07 pm

What worries me about these kind of threads/posts is the expectation Bethesda should eliminate a fun asset just because a player or players found it to be too easy, too powerful, unbalanced, might as 'well roll the end credits'.

If an asset makes your gameplay too easy and you are upset, don't use the asset. Strip your clothes off and tackle the rest of the game with an iron dagger.
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Stacy Hope
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:35 am

What worries me about these kind of threads/posts is the expectation Bethesda should eliminate a fun asset just because a player or players found it to be too easy, too powerful, unbalanced, might as 'well roll the end credits'.

If an asset makes your gameplay too easy and you are upset, don't use the asset. Strip your clothes off and tackle the rest of the game with an iron dagger.


Ha ha ha

"I dominate this game!!! It's too easy. I just beasted to level 81, joined every guild and beat the main quest in under 100 hours using an iron mace, no magic and wearing a belted tunic......ON MASTER DIFFICULTY! Aren't I amazing? Noobs bask in my magnificence!!!!
Now, if only I could interact with an actual living breathing female............"

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meghan lock
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:24 am

I don't actually see drinking a potion called Blacksmith Potion before you do blacksmithing an exploit. It's a drink provided by the vanilla game, and is thus intended to be used without further concern for bunny jumping backwards throuhg Alduin's childhood.


It's not. But that isn't what gives godmode. The alchemy/enchanting/smithing LOOP however, that constitutes an exploit IMO. however it's such a ballache to do that IMO I dont get all the moaning. If it takes that much grind then of course the end result will be big.

Oh, and rikimeru: you DO know that true effectiveness with a skill is determined by the perks you choose? And in order to get those perks you must level up your skill? Yeah, you get to be a good warrior by hitting things and being hit. Shocking I know.
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A Boy called Marilyn
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:35 am

You might have played some of those perk trees, but you just guessed for most of them.

TES games aren't World of Warcraft... there are hundreds of ways of becoming obscenely powerful through combining all kinds of obvious and not so obvious skills/perks/items/techniques.
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Rich O'Brien
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:30 am

I know that several people before me have already pointed it out, but the Illusion perks are pretty incredible and certainly far from useless, I can use Fury/Pacify/Rout on any enemy of any level now, besides Dragons of course.
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Shelby McDonald
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:58 pm

Skyrim's strength is also its weakness depending on what you want out of it. It's designed for pure role-playing goodness, meaning no matter what way you want to interact with the world, you can have a degree of success. If you want to devote perk points to enchanting and smithing, then those points aren't being spent on spell/weapon or armor skills. As a pure RPG, it's fine. But most of us aren't pure RPGers. This isn't our first rodeo so to speak.


In no way, shape or form was Skyrim designed purely for roleplaying. It is barely an RPG.
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Sasha Brown
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:34 am

In no way, shape or form was Skyrim designed purely for roleplaying. It is barely an RPG.


Trolling, or stupidity. Either way both are at their finest within this post.
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dean Cutler
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:01 am

I got to the smithing. "low low cost of a few hundred iron daggers"

And realised what you are.

If you are going to sit and smith a few hundred iron daggers and then say smithing is over powered then your posts are not worth reading.
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Lalla Vu
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:58 am

Calm/Pacify == Unlimited Free Sneak Hits

Pretty much breaks the game by making it trivial, as so many things do.

As for saying being a Conjurer is all about summoning things and watching them kill things, well, that's not really how it works unless you ONLY use Conjuration, EVER. And what sense does that make. Personally I use Summons + Bound Bow with only 3 perks invested in Archery. The Bound Bow is Near-Daedric Quality (especially with Mystic Binding) with the most powerful Arrows in the game (Bound Arrows). Still not as good as 100 Smithing Daedric Bows, but those trivialize the game once again.
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Lily Evans
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:08 am

The OP is FAIL
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Lindsay Dunn
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:04 am

just a point i'd like to make if you are exploiting the system to spam enchanted steal daggers to skill smithitng and enchanting etc obviously the game becomes easy. why is the games fault that some players have no self control???
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phil walsh
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:21 am

30 hours really isn't much, skill balance isn't static it varies depending on where you are in the game.

Can't say I agree with many of the things the OP found unbalanced/worthless aside from lockpicking which really is kinda useless, pick-pocket has it's own problem because it's not that easy to skill up the perks are fine though.
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Terry
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:33 am

Just one comment,

if you are gonna read the internet on how to make your character godlike as quick as possible. There aren't many single player games who will keep on being challenging.
Besides even wiith full deadric (legendary) armor. A bunch of mages managed to take me out.

And I wonder how much of this you found out yourself, or just plucked from the internet. there's no way you can discover all these thing on your own in just 30 hours.


Edit: let alone test every single perk in 30 hrs? BS
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Bek Rideout
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:18 pm

Nah I dunno about Pickpocket, it helped me get tons of arrows for my Archer by stealing arrows from Guards, and it's nice to steal armors and weapons from enemies or guards to make fights easier, thought that goes very hand in hand with Sneak being good as well.

And stealing rings is great to sell, as long as you have an NPC that can buy stolen items.

I just wish the Poisoned perk gave an x5 poison effectiveness for directly applying it to an NPC, cause right now it's pretty much useless unless you have spent a lot in the Alchemy tree and craft your own poisons.

And using training and then stealing back the money is great, as long as you don't spend too much money as the % for success is 0 once they get too much gold.

I also like stealing keys from people so I don't have to go through the stupid lockpicking minigame.
And I think there are some unique items to steal as well, which can't be gained except by killing the NPC.





But I do think there should be more to it.

Bethesda should patch it so that several NPC's have enchanted rings and amulets and for Nobles and Jarls to have like 300+ gold on them, so that pickpocketing them is a great way to earn cash.

They should raise the % of success for stealing gold if you have a fully perked out Pickpocketing skill, hell with that perk that does +50% success with stealing gold the minimum chance should be 25% no matter the amount the NPC is carrying

It would be nice for some NPC's to get great enchanted armors and weapons (not scaled, but fixed, even from lvl 1) so that there is a point to stealing equipped items.

And of course make the perk Poisoned give the applied poisons 5x more damage.

They do this and Pickpocketing is fine.
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Bones47
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:39 am

1 ...This results in 95% of us ending up with an incredibly overpowered or underpowered character by level 30....
2 ...One-handed - Balanced. Dual weilding 1 handers is pretty useless becuase of the lack of block ability and the negligible damage increase....
3 ...Light armor - Unless you are a primary caster it's worthless. Run speed has little to no noticeable difference, it's not lighter when you get the perk to make Heavy Armor weightless, not much difference for stealthing.
4 ...Sneak - Completely overpowered. 100% camo was overpowered in Oblivion the same for Sneak in this game. 1 shotting pretty much anything from stealth with a bow or dagger gets old quick. Oh yeah choosing Shadow Warrior may as well bring up the ending credits.
5 ...Alteration - Balanced as long as you get the perk to have unlimited duration time on your spells. Otherwise get very used to pausing your gameplay every 15 seconds to bring up the menu to cast a buff on yourself.
6 ...Smithing - Completely overpowered. For the low low cost of a few hundred iron daggers, you too can completely ruin the fun of looting, dungeon exploring, or quest rewards.
7 ...Heavy Armor - Simply better than light armor in almost every situation even for Sneaks
8 ...Enchanting - The most overpowered of all the skills. Not only does it make finding items completely useless, but selling off enchanted iron daggers (which pretty much everyone figures out) breaks the fun of selling items for gold.
9 ...Alchemy - Overpowered. What's with the crafting in this game? At first it may not seem overpowered but at some point you will quickly realize that you can't ever die when you are holding 100 health pots, magic pots, and +dmg pots. Also 50g to make a pot and 500g sell back gets ridiculous.
10 ...Speech - Worthless. Gold becomes trivial by the time you can invest in this tree. Persuasion and Intimidate has little to no impact on a story line.
11 ...Pickpocket - Worthless. Either you pickpocket early with an extremely low chance of success of getting anything valuable or you wait for pickpocket items/potions and realize by that point of the game the items are useless.
12 ...Archery - Overpowered. It's terrible that no matter how you spec you will end up using a bow and arrow. Used from stealth and it's over the top. I just can't see Gandolf chasing a dragon around on foot with a bow and arrow.
13 ...Illusion - Worthless. Nothing in this tree is useful and even if it was slightly useful each skill is trumped by potions and items you find along your journeys.
14 ...Conjuration - Underpowered compared to all melee trees and your own companion. You already have a near indestructible companion at your beckon call. You can choose to forgo your companion so you can be forced to summon and blow your magika every fight but that seems more like a chore.
15 ...Destruction - Underpowered compared to all melee trees. If you aren't comparing then Destruction becomes a challenging tree that requires time and patience to kill each enemy you come across.
16 ...Restoration - Balanced unless you take up Alchemy. Then it becomes pretty useless. Instant full heal from Alchemy > Channeled heal from Resto

1 - Glad to be in the 5% then
2 - double damage from being able to attack with 2 weapons at once + 30% faster swings + 50% extra damage from power attacks... and you call this useless. Are you sane?
3 - Run speed allows you to easily avoid enemy hits completely (instead of blocking or getting hit). Low weight gives the option to skip weightless and use the perk on something else.
4 - If you couldn't hide properly, nobody would bother with sneak. I do agree that hiding in plain sight in a well lit room is taking it a bit too far. Sneak kills - being able to kill enemies and slip back in the shadows unnoticed - thats the point of being an assassin. If you don't like it, dont play that type of char.
5 - There is a perk for unlimited duration...? I thought the "Stability" perk only increases duration.
6 - Hmm strange. Exploring and questing is still fun for me.
7 - No. You can get just as much protection from light armor, you move faster in light armor, you don't need to spend a perk to make light armor weightless, you can get 50% buff to stamina regeneration with light armor... Do I need to continue?
8 - Being able to earn money honestly - through work is nice actually. And if it was weaker than random loot, nobody would bother with it.
9 - It has to be powerfull. 1 use = 1 potion => limited number of uses. Nobody would bother with it if you could do the same with magic with no limits. Making money through work is nice too. Not everyone wants to sell stuff from dead bodies all the time.
10 - Spech allows to peacefully settle situations which would normally end with bloodshed. Must have for "good" characters. Also geting extra money for your loot is nice early in the game.
11 - Makes training from NPCs free - that's pretty cool imho, considering how much training costs at skill 50+. Allows you to kill characters with poison :evil:
12 - If you couldn't kill stuff with bow, archers/rangers would be screwed. And chasing dragons is more effective with spells/shouts imho.
13 - You have no idea what you're talking about man. Perked illusion makes you god. Though it's more like mind control rather than illusions...
14 - Conjuration underpowered...? What game are you playing again? I have only two words for you - Dremora lord.
15 - Challenging (untill you get cast cost reduction gear) yes. Underpowered? No. It takes longer to kill stuff, but you do it from safe distance without the need to count arrows. A fair trade imho. The master spells were a little disappointing though.
16 - Restoration has instant cures too, it doesn't have limited number of uses and it can heal both you and your allies at the same time... and you would know this, if you ever tried it.
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Beast Attire
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:32 pm

I'm totally agreed with Blacksmithing and Alchemy overpowered statements.

You can get full set of Daedric armor so early, that you don't even need to care about other types of armor. Also the fact that you can buy all the materials you need for that from merchants is so frustrating.

While its not so bad to let you craft unlimited number of potions, the real flaw to let the unlimited usage of it. Making some restriction may solve that problem.
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Sam Parker
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:59 am

Pickpocket - Worthless. Either you pickpocket early with an extremely low chance of success of getting anything valuable or you wait for pickpocket items/potions and realize by that point of the game the items are useless.

Illusion - Worthless. Nothing in this tree is useful and even if it was slightly useful each skill is trumped by potions and items you find along your journeys.


I mostly agree with your post, except on these two points. I'm playing an assassin now and have been perking these two trees. It's been pretty fun to sneak up on a target, take their weapon from them, and cut them down. If I don't get them on the first swing, or if they've got buddies, I'll calm them and do it all over again. I'm not really using smithing or enchants in order to avoid the overpowered stuff, so these tactics have actually been worthwhile.

*edit* Granted, some of this is situational, and is only really useful if you aren't uber powerful, but it still works for the vibe i'm going for.

Good post, though.
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Sharra Llenos
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:11 pm

I have to start by saying that I loved this game. No other game I ever played gave me the feeling of immersion like this one. The problem though is that like many others, I took certain skills that ruined the game for me and made progressing completely worthless. No one has fun in an RPG when 100% of all looted items have become useless and taking down the toughest creatures in the game takes a few seconds.


The basic principle with gamesas games when levelling a character: Try before you buy.

This is a Bethesda game, and if it's the first one you ever played you would be unaware that they let you become a God if you want to be one. I always save before trying a perk out to see if I like how it feels. I've avoided perks that will make me feel personally overpowered.

I've gone past the stage where I'd argue that it's bad design that players need to moderate a games difficulty for themselves. I think this is the best compromise available in this type of game. Having said that, there probably should be a few extra levels of difficulty for those players who really like a challenge, and love to scratch their heads over how to make the best builds.
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Jhenna lee Lizama
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:17 pm

I can see that some people are not experienced pure casters and/or are not interested in actual role playing. That's all I will say.
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NAkeshIa BENNETT
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:18 am

My mgae never used a weapon even once. The only time he ever had weapons in his inventory was to take them to sell in the early parts of the game when he was poor. Never used bound bow/sword either. Not once.

Bow and arrow are not required.

My two hand warrior never used his bow either. I would just wait for the dragons to land then smash them. I thought 2 handed warrior was super overpowered. By level 23 ish I had 60 something in 2 handed, 72 in Heavy Armor, 50 in block, and 54 in smithing. I used Steel Plate with the Steel Horned Helm, and a Skyforged Steel Greatsword. No enchantments on my armor or my sword, none. Pure steel real deal like a true Nord. I crushed the empire and became Harbinger and my enemies fell before me with ease. My warrior was easily the most powerful of my characters. I don't even want to think what that character would have been like if I used enchanted gear ...
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Melung Chan
 
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Post » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:12 pm

I agree with the OP for the most part, but especially with CycloneJack's response.

It seems that the developers provided us with one very, very strong skill per archetype (enchanting = mage, sneak = thief, smithing = warrior) as well as a few other skills that could be mixed in not so much for increased efficacy, but more for roleplaying flavor (lockpicking, pickpocketing, dual wield *although this is arguable, but i've never found DW to be anything more than a cool-looking novelty ability*, and also alchemy *again, arguably; i'd say restoration is far better than the OP suggests, as it requires no reagents and mana regens quickly*).

What this allows for is true roleplaying builds in which the player selects one "overpowered" skill and counterbalances it with archetype flavor skills, the best example of this being Sneak (which is better than it has ever been in TES series) combined with pickpocketing or speech. If sneak WASN'T a game-changing, powerful ability, then the entire archetype falls apart, as it has nothing else to stand on. Now, if a player is aware of all of the "overpowered" skills, he/she may just as easily create a class that specializes in all those skills to ascend into near-godhood, but remember, the trade off there would be the unsatisfying sense of moving too far from one's desired "class" build. Every build should probably have just one powerful skill, but then the player would be free to hybridize as desired.

Having played several builds up to about level 20-25 on adept and expert, I can say that the game is NOT "too easy" unless you deliberately powergame, with Sneak possibly being the only exception as it does become astonishingly powerful just through natural advancement. I too have a problem with the game almost requiring bow usage, as many of the core encounters (dragons, enemy mages) can be so frustratingly difficult that hybrid or "flavor" builds stand little chance if adhering to certain light roleplaying rules. But again, that is a personal choice to sacrifice efficacy for flavor.
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Ebony Lawson
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:24 am

To the OP....it is better to keep quiet and have people believe you are ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
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Alyesha Neufeld
 
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Post » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:23 am

I have to start by saying that I loved this game. No other game I ever played gave me the feeling of immersion like this one. The problem though is that like many others, I took certain skills that ruined the game for me and made progressing completely worthless. No one has fun in an RPG when 100% of all looted items have become useless and taking down the toughest creatures in the game takes a few seconds. The problem like many of you already know is the skill and perk system. The disparity between the skill trees is glaring. Some perks and trees are so good that if you choose them you will ruin your game experience while others are so bad that if you choose them you will 100% waste those points. This results in 95% of us ending up with an incredibly overpowered or underpowered character by level 30.

One-handed - Balanced. Dual weilding 1 handers is pretty useless becuase of the lack of block ability and the negligible damage increase. Otherwise Sword/Shield, Sword/Spell is a fun combination.
Light armor - Unless you are a primary caster it's worthless. Run speed has little to no noticeable difference, it's not lighter when you get the perk to make Heavy Armor weightless, not much difference for stealthing.
Sneak - Completely overpowered. 100% camo was overpowered in Oblivion the same for Sneak in this game. 1 shotting pretty much anything from stealth with a bow or dagger gets old quick. Oh yeah choosing Shadow Warrior may as well bring up the ending credits.
Alteration - Balanced as long as you get the perk to have unlimited duration time on your spells. Otherwise get very used to pausing your gameplay every 15 seconds to bring up the menu to cast a buff on yourself.
Smithing - Completely overpowered. For the low low cost of a few hundred iron daggers, you too can completely ruin the fun of looting, dungeon exploring, or quest rewards.
Block - One of the few balanced skills in the game. It requires timing to use which increases the user experience and is useful to use often.
Heavy Armor - Simply better than light armor in almost every situation even for Sneaks
Lockpicking - Worthless if you get the skeleton key. Still worthless otherwise if you have enough lockpicks and common sense.
Enchanting - The most overpowered of all the skills. Not only does it make finding items completely useless, but selling off enchanted iron daggers (which pretty much everyone figures out) breaks the fun of selling items for gold.
Alchemy - Overpowered. What's with the crafting in this game? At first it may not seem overpowered but at some point you will quickly realize that you can't ever die when you are holding 100 health pots, magic pots, and +dmg pots. Also 50g to make a pot and 500g sell back gets ridiculous.
Two-Handed - Balanced. Even though giving up the shield is huge in Skyrim, you aren't gimping yourself by choosing 2 hander. It's not over the top or underpowered.
Speech - Worthless. Gold becomes trivial by the time you can invest in this tree. Persuasion and Intimidate has little to no impact on a story line.
Pickpocket - Worthless. Either you pickpocket early with an extremely low chance of success of getting anything valuable or you wait for pickpocket items/potions and realize by that point of the game the items are useless.
Archery - Overpowered. It's terrible that no matter how you spec you will end up using a bow and arrow. Used from stealth and it's over the top. I just can't see Gandolf chasing a dragon around on foot with a bow and arrow.
Illusion - Worthless. Nothing in this tree is useful and even if it was slightly useful each skill is trumped by potions and items you find along your journeys.
Conjuration - Underpowered compared to all melee trees and your own companion. You already have a near indestructible companion at your beckon call. You can choose to forgo your companion so you can be forced to summon and blow your magika every fight but that seems more like a chore.
Destruction - Underpowered compared to all melee trees. If you aren't comparing then Destruction becomes a challenging tree that requires time and patience to kill each enemy you come across.
Restoration - Balanced unless you take up Alchemy. Then it becomes pretty useless. Instant full heal from Alchemy > Channeled heal from Resto

So in order to still experience the fun of having a decent battle and enjoy the item rewards you pretty much have to avoid the overpowered Sneak, Smithing, Enchanting, Alchemy, Archery. If you want to avoid placing your points in completely useless and/or redundant skill trees you have to avoid Lockpicking, Speech, Pickpocket, Illusion. This results in having to avoid 9 out of the 18 skills just to have that feeling you had in those first amazing 10 hours of Skyrim. The only problem is that you know you are avoiding these skills and it creates a situation even worse than the tempting option of using the difficulty slider. It creates a game where one wrong decision early in the game on skill placement results in the game not feeling genuine or fun after only 30 or so hours of gameplay.


Yeah I made a very similar list around the first week of playing. The game was new to most people so everyone marked as a blasphemer & that I didn't know what I was talking about. Funny how fast the general attitude has shifted. I'm surprised Bethesda did not come to the same conclusion after hundreds of hours of playtesting. Took me about 30 hours & I could already label 1/2 the skill trees worthless.
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Gavin boyce
 
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