Notice: This is NOT the thread you should visit just to bash Destruction. This is a discussion anolyzing all schools of magic and making suggestions for improvements in Skyrim's magic system by way of adding spells and effects that have either existed within TES history or would make sense to be within a school (e.g. on-target armor spells in Alteration for use on followers). Don't come here just to whine about Destruction being underpowered, because that's off topic and you will be reported for derailing/flaming unless you actually have constructive criticisms.

Just like anywhere else on the forums, productive posts or no posts, please

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I love using magic in Skyrim, but there are some glaring holes in the system that have not been addressed yet.

The following is a list of suggestions that has either already existed within TES or would be logically coherent with the magic already in place.

Illusion:

This school is pretty awesome as it stands, and the perks are all extremely useful. For the most part, I commend Bethesda on their work here. It's arguable that Command Creature and Command Humanoid would have been good additions, but also arguable that those spells/effects would have undermined the potentials of the Animal Allegiance shout and the Bosmer greater power, though neither of those apply to creatures (e.g. trolls) or NPCs. Else than that, this school is wonderful.

Conjuration:

I've seen it argued that we don't have enough summons in Skyrim, but I'm not sure whether to agree. Insofar as having spriggans and spriggan matrons, yes, I would love that, but what other creatures would be good candidates? The fact that we have elemental atronachs as always, powerful Dremora lords, and can raise just about any undead in the game (outside of dragons, mammoths and giants, the latter two of whom can be raised with the Ritual stone) is more than enough for me.

I wouldn't so much add to Conjuration as I would improve it. The atronachs have little in the way of AOE magic--the Flame Atronach has to die before she lets out an AOE fire spell (something of a self-destruct), the Frost Atronach has no magic and uses ground-pound with an AOE effect, and the Storm Atronach doesn't even have Chain Lightning.

Personally, I would like to see the atronachs given a good AOE spell upon receiving the Elemental Potency perk. That would go a long way towards making them more powerful--dealing the same damage as one of their normal on-target attacks, but to multiple targets.

Furthermore, I'd really love to see something set apart the atronach thralls from regular summons, something which would give me a reason to go through the trouble of preparing with them as opposed to quickly summoning a pair of equal-strength atronachs who won't have pathfinding issues over miles of adventuring. Giving the thralls access to the master level Destruction spell of their element would be a great addition.

Lastly (at least in Conjuration), perhaps it would be nice if the atronachs could absorb their element, but I'm not sure how balanced that'd be--the atronachs already distract enemies well enough that I can fire off master level spells in the first place, and a pair of Frost Atronachs healing in a Blizzard would be terrifying and possibly overpowered.

Destruction:

Destruction is another school (just like the above two) that is done extremely well, but is missing some things that are either already canon or would be very cohesive with the current system (or both).

Right off the bat, I'll say that Destruction is missing Weakness to [Element] and Weakness to Magic. Currently, those only exist as poison effects (as well as Weakness to Poison, but more on that later), which makes the use of these effects a hassle. You have little choice:

Firstly, you must use Destruction and Alchemy. Either that, or you must rely on money and luck to find or buy poisons, scrolls and staves...and I don't think anyone wants their combat efficiency to be based wholly on luck and their wallet. Secondly, you must have weapons or sufficient Pickpocket or Conjuration (to conjure weapons) skill in order to apply poisons, and I personally am not too fond of such restrictions.

Destruction magic is, therefore, certainly missing Weakness to [Element] and Weakness to Magic effects. Weakness to Poison might be nice, too, but a non-elemental Damage Health spell would be a great addition. Of course, all of these need to come in on-target and AOE versions, with Damage Health possibly having a master-level variant.

Restoration:

A powerful school with some obvious flaws. Firstly, there exist no expert-level ward spell. I would imagine that an expert level ward that followed the established trend would have a power of 100 points of spell damage reduction and armor rating increase, but apparently it wasn't obvious enough (or perhaps Beth thought of it, only to scrap the idea for being overpowered). I, personally, do not think that would be overpowered.

A master level ward would be nice, too, but given the animation of master spells, perhaps it would erect a barrier instead. Even better, if Guardian Circle protected against enemy spells and increased one's armor rating by, say, 150, then it would really be a force to be reckoned with and a very attractive reason to master Restoration (because who honestly needs 300 points of healing in one cast?) without being overpowered, in my opinion.

Alteration:

This is the school I think is missing the most. What Alteration is obviously lacking is armor spells you can give to targets (followers/summons), and maybe even an AOE armor spell that works like Grand Healing. Water Walking would be nice, too, and I imagine that Mark and Recall would logically fall under Alteration (and that combo certainly has its loving fans). The latter three spells aren't absolutely necessary, but a way to armor your allies with magic is imperative, I would say.

Thoughts? Discuss!

Destruction is inherently deficient, and you stated in your section on that exactly why: it can't stand on its own. You *need* to have Alchemy or a lot of money to sustain DPS with it. The spells are woefully inefficient with the magic bar in vanilla, and only get progressively worse in regards to damage/magicka expenditure ratios as the expertise level of the spells rise. It gets to the point where Fireball is preferred to the master-level (Firestorm? It's so useless that I don't even recall its name properly) on the simple matter of efficiency: I could cover a target area much further away, do much more damage for the magicka expended, and, most importantly, retain mobility. So much effort was made on making the master spells so superduper awesome to watch that they utterly fail to be useful.

The dual cast ratios need to be toned down too. 2.2x effect... for 2.8x cost. It would simply be easier for me to cast it 3 times for 3x the cost of a single cast. The only use that dual casting is to take advantage of the gamebreaker Impact perk.

Being a destruction wizard must mean have a incredible power to blast almost anything and got little opportunities again any physical attacks. I feel everytime weird like a magic user:

-Destruction school is a irony (the word itself makes reference to death and annihilation, in fact destructions spells deal a stupid instant damage and master ones are impractical).

-There is no penalization for use armor, it should be at least 20% more stronger spells.

-No Spellmaking. I can't make experiments , alchemist and enchanters do.

-Staffs countinue being the crap they was, they could a kind of amplificator of spell effectiveness.

-Lack of spells amount.

-I am forced to use stranges sploits like 0 cost magicka (the cost is insane , i like the solution that propose MadCat about dual) via enchanting, potions, and abuse of ridiculous perk named impact

I agree that staves should be more varied and powerful, especially Illusion staves; they're practically useless!

Yeah, impact becomes essential if you blast away together with Augmented perks for whatever is your choice element. Some spells are missing but in this installment you can substitute shouts for them (i.e. I use "Become Ethereal" essentially like a feather spell, to cut distance and jump off mountains.) I agree that drains and weaknesses could be added, but Disarm is a fair substiture for disintegrate.

Have not tried all the summons in the game, but I don't like the Fire Atronach at all and prefer Storm and Frost. Looking forward to the Dremora most definitely...

Wards are useless in Skyrim, even with the perk that lets you regenerate magicka. It is way better to use a summon or follower (Barbas!) to create a distraction, while you blast your fellow mages away or perhaps drain them with the staff of Magnus. I also haven't encountered a Silence spell in game which I am slightly worried about.

I agree with the point about cost-effectiveness, and I only use powerful destructive spells if I know the enemy is going to be killed instantly. If there is a mob I'd rather use a lower level spell, with Impact of course, and keep my magicka.

I really do think there should be more summons. More is always better!

There should be expert level aoe spells for destruction! More bound weapons!

Unlock spells! Water walking! Absorb health spell! Wards should at least stagger an opponent sometimes when struck with a weapon.

Good post, and I completely forgot about Silence. Not sure whether that would fall under Illusion (as usual) or Alteration, but I can even see it viably put in Destruction. Either way, it's a great spell that this game is sorely missing--enemy mages can be hell.


I think those are all EXCELLENT ideas! Well, except unlock spells. I disagree with that because it would undermine not only the Tower stone's power, but the entire Lockpicking tree.

The lockpicking "tree" undermines itself already. The majority of perks are already useless because of the ability for characters of any skill level to attempt any level lock and the abundance of lockpicks in the game. I don't think the unlock spells would hurt the game that much on that count. Heck, even if it was one master level spell. After getting Alteration to level 100 I'm probably going to be bored of the lockpicking mechanic so just let me have the spell.

I really just want spell making. I think a lot of useful effects are present, I just want to fiddle with the magnitude and targets and such. This by itself would address the poster's complaints about the lack of an Armor for others spell and the lack of a high level barrier spell (though I like the idea about a guardian circle like barrier). Also, does anybody else miss "touch" spells?

Yeah, a lot of effects are present that aren't in any spells in the game, just look at this:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Magical_Effects

And that doesn't even include effects of abilities, perks, shouts, etc.

There is an absorb health spell, you have to be a vampire to use it though.

And its utterly and totally useless.

We need spellmaking.
Its as simple as that.
I predicted this mess the second it was known spellmaking was axed, and Im not happy at all that I was completely and utterly right.

You guys make some excellent points, however unfortunate that may be.

Do you think our butthurtery might influence a spellmaking aspect to DLC? It's not as if it isn't canon, and NPC mages even talk about "experimenting" all the time! Hell, J'zargo can even make explosive scrolls of awesomeness.

.........MAYBE.....idk though. It doesnt seem like they pay a whole lot of attention to us all that often. After all, how long have we called for spears? Ever since they were axed in oblivion. What about crossbows?.....heck.....just bugs period......idk. I would rather them focus on bug fixes then dlc right now, as it stands vanilla is wretched, even for a huge game this is unacceptable. If vanilla is bad can you imagine how many problems dlc will introduce?

Actually, vanilla is working perfectly fine for me. I don't remember the last time I experienced a gamebreaking (or even just an annoying) bug since 1.2 (and that's not counting the recent PS3 crash when entering the water, since there was an immediate fix).

But hey, I know enough by now that YMMV greatly

your really lucky :/ thats all I have to say.

I'm going to come back here and make a post cataloging all of the suggestions we've received. Outside of us complaining about spellmaking, I'm really liking where this thread is going. Hopefully, I'll make it before post #30 and stay on the first page, but if not, I'll edit my OP.

Thanks for the contributions, folks. Keep 'em coming

Well, it's not really possible to create a spellmaking system as an ESP, so the DLC would have to add hard-coded stuff which would mean it would either be a mandatory update, or they would have to release separate update files for DLC and non-DLC games. I don't think that's going to happen.

What do you mean? Non-dlc players simply wouldnt have it spell making.

nvm, wasnt looking at previous post.

What ever happened to drain spells in the restoration tree? I really miss those spells. I think Conjuration is missing spells like "Summon Skeleton." being a Necromancer is hard enough, by the time your corpse is done floating upwards from his summon snimation and finds his sword on the ground you're either dead or running for your life. I think destruction is missing some instant cast shock style spells and the ever classic "40pt frost damage on touch" spells are great. One spell on my wish list? Corpse explode!!!

I kind of think there should be more types of magic ie. Holy magic, shadow/corruption magic, druid magic.

I'd also like to see Mount summons for conjurers. Not being able to summon a Hellstead seems odd to me.

We need Spell Creation and Destruction's base damage increased. No Spell Creation means the art of magic is lost. I wouldn't mind open lock spells returning.

Yup. I've agreed with you time and time again about this. Spell making is so essential because it really allows the player to become as powerful as he/she wants. With the way destruction is right now the few spells that we are given just don't pack quite enough punch on the upper difficulties. With spell making, this gives players who want to experiment the option to do so and the players who think that it's too tedious to just buy already made spells from vendors.

And there was NO reason to scrap a couple of effects like they did (reflect spell, water walking, absorb health, fortify, cure disease, summon varieties...)

I'm not saying I don't enjoy magic because I really really do. They just cut some things that really made OB a special game.

Cure disease.

Just started my Mage character and there's just a few things that I would have liked to have seen. I know there are some instances where a certain element has no effect on a certain target (I like ice magic and am having real trouble in the dwemer dungeons) But perhaps just some small things. For example, perhaps a fire spell targetted at a certain type of metal armour would cause for it to become hot and slightly less effective, or setting plain cloths on fire. Targets comprised of mostly metal being blown back a little bit by the electrical discharge from a lightening bolt, or enemies who are carrying heavy weapons slipping over icy patches of ground you've made. I apologise for any spelling mistakes, or if this is actually in the game and is just so rare I don't notice it. There will be more but I haven't played in a few hours so I can't think. I'll go play in a second and it'll all come flooding back!

I'd like to see this (pentagram starting at the top, then clockwise in a circle):

Body Magic (Nature):
1. Restoration
2. Fortification
3. Clensing
4. Inhuman (Night Eye)
5. Destructive


Mental Magic (Mages):
1. Charm, Calm & Demoralize
2. Frenzy & Rally
3. Silence & Paralyze
4. Chameleon & Invisibility
5. Commanding

Summoning Magic (Scholars/Stealth):
1. Items
2. Beastiary
3. Undead
4. Spirits
5. Daedra

Elemental Magic (Stealth/Scholars):
1. Void
2. Fire
3. Air
4. Earth
5. Water

Alteration Magic (Combat):
1. Weights
2. Remote
3. Manipulation
4. Visible Physics
5. Invisible Physics

And in the center of it all...
Mysticism (All):
1. Protection & Resists
2. Detection & Dispells
3. Divinity & Relocation
4. Item charging & Whites
5. Enchanting & Blacks

Spell effects are then placed within this pentagram. Some spells will share "schools" with neighboring pentagram "schools". Some with the central Mystisicm. And some with both. The "school" might dictate how a spell is "performed"; i.e. Mysticism (weak and generalistic, but powerful at high levels) might only require brief focus of concentration, whereas high cost elemental spells (think raising galloping horses from water, like in LOTR) may require a dance (think "native american nature dances"). But what about "cheap" spells like light? To me it appears a good pentagram sharing candidate between two "schools" and also Mysticism (need lessons here before you can specialize, think of it as basic magic obtained in kindergarden, you may even start out with the most basic ones).

This pentagram and center can further be expanded upon by outer "layers" of white and dark divinity, aedra and daedra, giving you further boosts depending on your playstyle and worship. It may also depend on the two moons (or sun and moons), especially for alchemical purposes. Another expansion of the pentagram is into how magic is being refilled; absorbent, regenerative, potions, natural (wells or whatever), and maybe worship in the center - who knows.

But the pentagram itself can be further expanded upon to alchemical purposes, by utilizing the Chinese Taoist pentagram for the elements (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water), with a central "Ether" coming from Japanese tradition (gobosei) that could be connected to aedra, daedra, and sun, and moons. Metals and common solids (rather than herbs from herbalism) is an alchemical ingredient I deeply miss. Metallic alchemy (kinda dark and evil sounding) and herbalism (think pure medicine/helpful purposes here) could also be aided with the

Oh, and look at the human body; head, two arms, two legs, and abdomen in the center - could be utilized as well somehow.

The Pentagram is strong in all magic, why the heck didn't TES take this route properly?

Of course, these are just wild ideas (although some serious thought have gone into it), which would help bring back some desperately needed depth into the game, where the limits that occur will appear like natural limits given the shape of the rules. I don't want to be the guy having to setup and program the logics for it all though