I think people are starting to come to a realization that all GAMES have statistics. They are the rules, boundaries, capabilities of the player' when interacting within the program. What people are hung up on is the trend in games where all math is done in the background instead of out in the open for the player to see. Once people realize that they may stop nagging about the loss of stat transparency.

RPG combines role-playing AND gaming. You can role-play without the boundaries of a game and you can game without the creative freedom of role-playing. So RPGs HAVE to have both elements to exist as named. People are trying to argue that because a piece is integral to the whole that it defines that whole. This is not the case because that argument would have to work backward as well as forward and if it doesn't the statement is false (basic concepts in mathematics that people should have learned in high-school).

Take this example:

Statistics are the fundamental characteristic of RPG's.

Try saying it backward:

RPGs are fundamentally characterized by statistics.

What is wrong with that statement? RPGs are made of 2 elements and one of them is missing from that definition, role-playing. The same can be said for trying to say that RPGs are characterized primarily by role-playing. That just will not work.

You can role-play combat without statistics, but the stats turn that combat into a game. Stats provide the method of defining the game while Role-playing is the method of applying those stats within the game. Social interaction and narrative manipulation within an RPG has options for a character based upon statistical guidelines (such as: personality, skills, attributes, fame, karma, etc...).

Stop trying to define the genre by only ONE of its aspects. It is both Statistics and Role-playing. Everyone will lead much happier lives when you do.

I don't know why would the RPG elements go into the background. Yes, stats became more simple, but that doesn't mean that they're not as important. I would say that the character skill will matter just as much as it did in Oblivion, even more if they remove the speechcraft minigame and make locks work like in Fallout 3.

It is not the role-playing elements that go into the background, it is the GAME elements that do. Having the program do the math in the background allows a person to focus more on the role-playing aspect of the game (instead of focusing on the gaming aspect of roleplaying ).

Well said.

By the way, in regards to whether RPG elements got pushed more into the background or not, I think it is not necessarily so. Admittedly (and quite grudgingly I say this) much of it has been toned down post-Daggerfall (from then on not much has been changed actually,) and what I'm seeing with Skyrim is that the role-playing elements appear to be pushed up more a little bit. There's non-combat activities that our PC can do for a living; there's the possibility that our actions might affect the economy of the region; they promised us a supposedly revamped and more setting-conscious faction and law system; and there's the quest generation system which accommodates to what type of player we're playing (an attempt to mirroring the GM in PnP, I guess). Now if this added with a more in-depth quest-related dialogues and outcomes then I'd say we're returning a few steps closer to the RPG side than the previous two installments of the series.

and you guys cant forget that TES isnt just an RPG its an open world RPG, meaning you have nearly complete freedome on where you go or what you do with the role you have taken on. where as a game like god of war is an action adventure rpg, in this type of game you dont get to decide where to go or what choices you want to make.

And how is it still an RPG? God of War is an Action game, imo.

RPG stands for Role Playing Game, in god of war you take on the role of kratos the demi god son of zeus. god of war was just an example, there are lots of games that can be seen as an RPG.

Uuuuuhhh alright then :teehee:

lol if you dont agree i would be happy to hear why. its just this whole thread seems pointless bc everyone should know that TES is an Open World RPG. witch todd howard has said plenty of times lol.

umm buddy i have no idea what u r trying to say, or maybe i do and your just confusing me. bc your stats in a RPG are determined by how you play the game e.g if you play as a warrior your physical stats will increase, if you play as a mage your mental stats will increse. thier is no such thing as a "statistical RPG" but there are action adventure RPG's and open World RPG's. both of witch have stats that are determined by how you like to play the game.

Gosh no... Better to ~a lot better to ~ have it work like Vampire Bloodlines or Arx Fatalis.

I have never played 'god of war', but I'd guess that it is no more an RPG than Super Mario. If I'm wrong :shrug:, could you explain why?

I think everyones' opinions is heavily influenced if they have experienced other types of RPG before (PnP, MUD) that does not deal with graphical system or if they are new to RPG. With the older RPGs you could pretty much imagine and do anything. Even with the text based bash shell, you could emote yourself to do anything. So for those who don't have that experience, their opinion on this topic may skew towards to no question that Skyrim is RPG or who cares if it is or not.

There are many shades of gray both ways, and your prior experience or not may influence on how strong the hue is on your shade of gray.

As far as RPG or not. I would think that "inter-actions" and not "combat actions" would determine how strong an RPG is. The inter-actions have to be strong for an RPG. The things like NPC conversations, reactions and environment behaviors to manipulations are key. Combat actions are there but not as 'weighted'. And I would also submit that any combat abilities one could obtain could also be obtainable by other characters of the same class/race in an RPG.

As far as the probabilities and weights of actions. They should be done in the background for graphic RPG. I am sure Skyrim's engine is more than capable of handling this task. The GM would be the engine in this since, and the world will determine the rules. The rules in this case would governed by the engine and everything would not be possible just like a GM in PnP would enforce what is possible. However, I think that the player character should have a palpable decision on how he could make these calculations work in his favor. He/she should know what to do to commit to some 'stat' in order to develop defense at the expence of attack power for example or how to increase his speed while knowing he may be giving up something else.

I have gone back and forth on the initial topic. I tend to lean towards more Action game with some elements of RPG because I think that some character development decisions are moved to the background in Skyrim. Like I said, everyone has their opinions.

A game is a interactive story, really a game is a interactive x, where x is whatever the hell you want it to be.

How are traits stats?



How is an rpg not a choose your own adventure book game? Choice and consequence are what makes an rpg.

A bunch of pointless choices does equal an RPG, it just makes it a bad one.

No, a game is a game. Your talking about "pro" wrestling, where it is no game, just pretend make believe. A choose your own adventure is not an RPG without stats. An interactive story is Mafia 2, or somthing, not an RPG. the only choices that make an RPG is the choice in the beginning on what build you make. Stats make the RPG, not choices. Without stats, there is no game, its a play.

So is Mario a RPG? Donkey Kong?

No....

I think you don't know what ROLE PLAYING means. You don't take it literally..

Utter tosh.

I can quite easily run a RPG with no stats whatsoever. I can even run one with an alternate resolution mechanic or no resolution mechanic at all. Does it stop being a 'game' just because instead of using P&P, probability generators and pre-defined stats I'm asking for a three sentence abstract description of your character and running everything in my head? Not at all.

The players may not see physical elements or know the game's rules, but it'll have an objective and require interaction to explore and solve. It will still be a game, but one based on pure roleplaying with choice and consequence driving it.

I think that the epitome of character development is not stat manipulation, but rather determining how the character sees/interacts with the world surrounding it. The decisions the character makes should be a greater definition of it's development then deciding what stats to increase should be. That's why the TES system of "advance by using" stats makes more sense, from an RPG point of view, then the player choosing stats to advance, IMO.

To the extent that the game provides a world and a framework in which to roleplay a character, a TES game provides greater opportunity than any game which requires the playing of some prerolled character, modified by stat placement and playing along some predefined path (Like ME, DA II, etc). I can roll a character in oblivion, and play it any way at all, including ignoring the entire main quest, and roleplay for dozens, if not hundreds of hours, with each character ending up differently.

Again, to me, stats are not required for roleplay. What is required is the worldspace, and mechanics-space, to freeform roleplay in relation to what makes sense in the world, in as many ways as possible.

Everyone is the same without stats, without stats there is no game, because nothing can happen. Its a story your telling. stats are not just numbers, they are the statistics that define the game. You talk about the player not knowing the rules, because there are no rules, your just making stuff up in your head. That's not a RPG, thats telling stories or somthing.

sure why not? your playing the role of mario after all are you not. yes you do take it literally. thats why there are differents kinds of role playing games. like how WOW is a MMORPG or TES is an Open world RPG.

No, because you didnt make Mario. In a RPG, you make your character, or define your character (in the case of JRPGs).

Like i said b4 RPG stands for ROLE PLAYING GAME. Zelda is an Rpg without stats. and all kinds of things happen in zelda.

Zelda isnt a RPG.

yes it is. you play the role of link and the story always has something to do with protecting hyrule. others will agree with me, bc an rpg isnt determined by the stats, its determined by the role you take on as the player.

Zelda is an action adventure game. By your flawed definition, every game is an RPG, which it is not.

I don't agree with you. By your definition, Tetris is an RPG where you assume the roles of variously shaped scrolling blocks.