I was just saying stats are required in some form for an RPG video-game to occur. While stats are not the defining factor of what is and isn't an RPG. A car without a motor isn't a car, while a boat without a motor is a sailboat. thats all I was really saying. And yes, I believe ES to be the closest thing to a P&P type setting within a video-game. Your always given the tools to become your own DM.

To me, an rpg is simply defined if you have the ability to build your character in a way you want, via stats/attributes/skills. This is the base groundwork for almost any "rpg" game.

Once you get into die rolls, not die rolls, real time combat, those are all sub-genres or hybrids, but still are rpgs imo.

Vampire: TMB? Rpg
Oblivion? RPG
Fallout 1? RPG.

You can then label them within sub genres, such as "action rpg," "classic rpg," etc.

Agreed. Interactivity and freedom of action are the fundamental core of role playing. It is quite possible to RP without any stats at all, and I have both participated in and run games without them on many occasions, even on-going campaigns. As you say stats are needed for this interactivity for a CRPG, but only because of the platform the game is occurring within, and they don't need to be visible or accessible to the player.

Don't get me wrong, many players equate their role playing experiences with stat management. However it is an adjunct and not actually necessary; a hang over from the wargaming hobby from which P&P RPGs evolved.


I do, and I'm an RPG author by profession.

Off the top of my head: I'd argue that stats are needed exactly to the extent that rules are necessary. Stats are the way that rules interact and bridge the game, the environment and the player (and the GM if appropriate).


Legs are not necessary to be a human being, but many people consider them to be a nice perk.

I might be convinced that stats are not absolutely required, but at what point does it change from a role-playing game to an acting jam? I'm not saying that it's even all that important to define the boundaries, but at some point you cross from game to free-form acting.

If you no longer have stats, your just telling stories, an interactive story, but it not a game. Your role playing like you would in the bedroom, or if you were playing with toys. The stats are the rules, like Panurgy said. Without them your just "pro wrestling " with decided outcomes.

Role Playing elements are usually described in terms of depth of customization.

Sandbox elements are usually described in terms of freedom to act and explore.

Action elements are usually described in terms of combat mechanics..

None of these are mutually exclusive. In fact, they bolster and enrich each other. A character customized to your liking will perform closer to your playstyle during combat, in which you use action elements. And a wide open sandbox provides more fodder to test your character's build and your handling of the combat than a linear game could possible hope to.

I love Bioware games, but the lineararity just gets old after a playthrough or two. Now, if there was a game where Bioware handled the story and the dialogue, Bethesda handled the rpg, combat, and sandbox elements, and Blizzard implemented online functionality - the universe would probably implode from the epicness, so it's probably not a good idea. :brokencomputer:

The social interaction came primarily from the fact that the old RPGs were generally party experiences, wherein more than one player came together in a group of friends, formed a party of adventuring heroes, and played together cooperatively through a series of adventures. Game designers for computers and consoles were so busy making the Dungeon Master obselete by having the machine take over his role, that many of them forgot how huge an aspect the involvement of more than one player once was. It has gone so far from its roots in that regard, that some computer/console RPG gamers will now obnoxiously and erroneously declare that RPGs are meant to be singleplayer experiences traditionally. . . Lol. Oh, they of little knowledge.

As to dice and rolls for accuracy etc. They really are as obselete as the dungeon master. Unlike the other players who served a function in the gaming beyond mere logistics, the dice and rolls etc. served only as regulators of the game world, a function that the technology takes care of in a more clean and efficient manner.

But technology isn't there yet, it cant account for the numerous variables that stats and behind the scenes dice rolls can.

I'm sorry - I hate to criticise but you offer a definition of an RPG and then highlight supposedly negative changes to the genre in recent games. The only problem is that none of these - character stats, dice roll combat etc actually form part of the definition. There is no reason whatsoever why atributes or dice role combat are a prerequisite of decision making or character develpment. There are a plethora of optionms offered by modern RPG's to provide the key elements of the genre including morality choices, skill upgrades, weapon upgrades (eg Demons Souls). Has the genre changed, yes of course, but it should. The greater sophistication in gaming technology gives designers more scope to blur the line between genres and to introduce mechanics. A good example of innovation in cooperation would be Demons Souls multiplayer, which wouldn't have been possible 10 years ago. I think people sometimes need to be more open minded about the way that games have changed. Whilst the traditional facets of the RPG shouldn't be ignored - things do change.

I hope that there will be multiple story paths / endings, based on your previous decisions, guilds and such. For me, this is important aspect of role playing, as much as stats and customization of your character.

Having read this whole thing I have seen many interesting viewpoints..

Here is mine...

I will define Skyrim as I go...If I choose to 'live' the world as my character, follow her development through her adventures and alliances,wanderings and discoveries...then it will be an RPG.

If I choose to go ahead and race through the quests and only 'power up' my character so that she can do so efficiently....then it will be an AA.

In my opinion, Skyrim is just a tool for my imagination, I will make of it what my suspension of disbelief will allow....but it is all down to me,and me alone.

I don't think RPGs need be single player only ~I just don't [tend to] like multiplayer games ~with exception for RTS' :shrug:

I disagree. Dice in an RPG represent game world probability. It is the dice ~specifically, and intrinsically, that decide the minor details that make a world believable ~at all. Without weighted probability, the expert lock picker will always open the lock ~because the lock is always in perfect working order, never rusty, never jammed before you get there, and he never makes a mistake... and because every identical lock in the hallway has had equal amount of wear & tear over the years, including the one that was taken apart by the last occupant.

Dice allow this for every skill, and cheaply. Until RPGs can account for a complete history of every object, for NPC moods, headaches, distraction, impatience; poor heath, and minor injuries to themselves and to the PC (like a paper cut that impairs his lock picking)... and random chance as well :chaos:.... Dice will never be obsolete in them.


Could you elaborate on that a bit; maybe with an example.

Its this part that gets me, "There is no reason whatsoever why atributes or dice role combat are a prerequisite of decision making". See, I would think it a given that the PC's Stats would (and should) directly affect what decisions that PC is capable of... Ignoring the simple stats like Strength... A PC with low perception should not be able to decide on things that they should not be able to perceive. A FO3 example: Players playing a PC with a perception of 3 (or less), should not be able to spot concealed traps for the PC ~IMO they shouldn't even be shown most traps until after they trigger them (or the game makes a stat check to see if it should visible), while an average perception stat could have them be normally visible, and a high perception stat should perhaps even flash them a few times to make them very obvious (this depending on how 'good' the result for the stat check was). (This is not ideal, but its a 3D FPP game now, and you have to deal with it creatively.)

Why should a genre change instead of split? To me, this sentiment seems no different than saying that a flavor should change ~that Vanilla should change (for all!) instead of a new French Vanilla, or some other 'new and improved' flavor. It is not always the case that a new technique is better, nor should an old one always be modified because of new techniques. I [personally] can't stand the new FPS format for Fallout ~because is strips out an important aspect that I enjoy ~to this day in the series games. I consider FO3 a spin off of the Fallout series ~not a continuation nor an improvement. I still think its a great game though; just as I like both Vanilla and 'French Vanilla'; But sometimes I'm just in the mood for the other one.

Why do so many people tend to think that more numbers = better RPG? This confuses me.

I think they don't really get what RPing truly means

I would say because that they do. (IMO) :shrug:

But I would also say that the odds are that we have a different sense of what is 'better'.
Its also a good bet that a lot of the ones that are 'pro numbers' have been playing RPGs for decades and think that they know exactly what RPG truly means to them.

(That's not to say that others with that history are all 'pro numbers' though. :angel:)

This is true. Maybe if RPGs in the past were not all numbers, people wouldn't be complaining as much as they are now.

Then again, RPGs back then relied on numbers, but with today's standards, we can go beyond that and make RPing feel more natural.

All I'm hearing is a bunch of old men complaining that the Reagan days are over. Time changes gentlemen. 'Tis a fact of life.

Not only men, and ALL cRPGs use numbers; its just that some choose to conceal them from the player; and some choose to limit their effect on the game.

**What is "More Natural" to you?

More natural, as in the numbers are still there, but like you just said, concealed from the player. To me, it feels more immersive when I'm less aware of numbers, thus not constantly being reminded that it's a video game.

Like attributes! They're still there, but concealed (Uh-oh, controversal topic )

I look on it as getting simplification, when I want to know what's going on; what is affecting the outcomes.

**Before you begin... I should make it clear that I don't play an RPG to play at simulation. I play to extrapolate on an alternative mind, and experience the story though it.

(Yes, this means that I prefer playing in third person, and by the numbers, whenever possible.) What many describe as 'immersive' is my kind of 'annoying'.

*And yes, I do understand this is contrary to the base intentions of the TES series. :shrug:

Then I suppose we can agree to disagree.

And, if you play on PC, mods could fix this for you.

:foodndrink:
Yes they can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wf_2V7wLkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7nxZUeAe0w

The things that define RPGs for me is character development.

I should be able to define who my character is through stats and abilities and interactions with other characters.

You can say that hack'n'slashers are not your favorite games, but Diablo is still the best game in its genre. Period. It deserves (at least) some respect.

Genres - very difficult topic.

TES always had action, adventure and RPG elements. So, basically, you could call them anything you want.
With Skyrim, I think the RPG elements moved a bit further into the background, and the action becomes more important once again, especially due to new technology. That's why I'd call it an Action-Adventure, but that's just me.

Actors do roleplaying without stats, you don't need stats unless character traits is seen as stats, I can play the role of a hot headed young investigator without saying anything about his physical abilities, and such.

In general stats aren't what makes your character who he is, strength, agility, endurance, all of those can change. What defines your role is his behavior, his actions, his values, and morals. Choices. What defines your character is not that your character killed a man in 2 strikes, it's that he killed him merely to get his watch.

And thats not a video game is it? That's not even really a game, just an interactive story. Not to mention traits are stats. A bunch of pointless choices does not equal an RPG, it equals a choose your own adventure book.