The first sentence isn't true, there wasn't a race of Imperials in DF. The one reference to Cyrodiil was in a book about wild elves.

Imperials will only be the stuff until the next game when they reveal the race of even whiter people who really run the empire. Super-Imperials. Then in the game after it's a race of dog people who actually ruled the empire.

So I don't get it, what's your problem with having Imperials as a race separate from other humans? They are culturally and physiologically different from nords (and can't blow things up by talking) they certainly aren't bretons. They are the Cyrodiilic people, called "imperials" because they happen to have this big empire, you know, that kind of rules, well, the world (kinda). Sure you could argue that they are actually two different people, but then again how many different groups of people actually comprise what we would call "German" or "Italian" or "Chinese" ? the answer is A LOT.

Bethsof should be given a little freedom to change things a bit after daggerfall, they hadn't devolped their world in its entirety and so some things had to change or some things had to appear. That's how you get the depth that you have in Morrowind, and sort of have in some of OBL (the world still has its depth, they just don't do as good a job of exploiting it)

He had quiet a human beings form when you met his spirit in knights of the nine

Sheogorath looks like a human being, too.

So does the Terminator, and dike Cheney, and all number of satanic man eating beasts.

I would just tell you all about him but you know, the birds... Sounds like a bad way to go.


But when it comes to divine beings, appearance i of little importance. Remember Wulf, or other such avatars. Think of the tales of Sheogorath walking in Tamriel disguised as a man in a banker's coat (thence he depiction of him as such)

Now from the stories, he had some wierd characteristics quite unlike humans. Like he lived a REALLY long time, had a laser arm, and that weird thing with his chest...

He's the Amulet of Kings powering a mer-murdering robot of some future time.

Imperial is a dumb race.

He also apparently appeared as several other forms in several other provinces during his "life span" or "life spans". If indeed he was the same entity as Hans the Fox and Harrald Harry-Breaks.

Were the writers inspired by Dan Simmons?

You're thinking of the Underking.

Not necessarily. The Numidium may have been thinking of Pelinal. Gotta give it to those dwemer....

But then again, that would certainly be a new theory, wouldn't it?


___TWM

The name itself is more Nordic than anything.

Although he was mostly human in appearance, MK once called him similar to a Terminator if I remember correctly. Thus the comments earlier in this thread comparing him to Arnold.

"Pelinal" is actually an Elvish word.

"The Whitestrake" is typical of the types of last names Nordsmen take for themselves, however.

MK (a sort of ex-dev/still dev who seems to still be working with gamesas on ES as a freelancer) made some remarks somewhere about Pellinal coming from the future and being a composite being of some kind. Note that Pellinal spoke of what was the future to those of that time, artifacts 'of the future kind' and a hand like a laser ... Some of what is told about that aspect of him might put him in Morrowind's past - the mention of Reman for example ... though the armor and the hand might well be from Oblivion's future - who can say?

The missing heart bit is another thing reminiscent of Lorkhan ... as is the dismembered part ... is this an echo or is there something coming up that links the two more firmly I wonders?

Since he was 'born'/unfolded from a diamond there is nothing to make him man or mer and what we have to go on is appearance - which likely differs from actuality. Have you guys considered Sotha-Sil's creatures? What if Sotha-sil or someone like him created Pellinal? That would be a thought to add to possible Numidianesque aspects. Could the Imperial researchers who were collecting Dwemer artifacts i Morrowind have used that as the basis for something new? Or is he from further in the future?

I have no picture of his appearance other than he seems to have been acceptable to those he fought for. However his nephew, the bull, sounds like a minotaur

And you're taking as fact for this a several thousand year old song that is likely steeped not only in metaphor and exaggeration, but legend as well. Okay.

The fact he moved backwards in time somehow brings up a few other questions too...such as his relation to Akatosh, whose permission or obedience he would surely have needed to travel through time backwards.

Also, it begs the question - was there an alternate timeline where humanity wasn't released from Umaril's chains? Could it have been humans from THIS possible future who sent him back, to assassinate Umaril and the other Elf Kings and make a better future for Tamriel?

Pelinal is said to be an avatar of the chaotic and unstable fusion of Akatosh and Lorkhan. I dont think that he traveled backwards through time, it was more like he was prophesying/embodying the future via his Akatosh half.

Should anyone listen to Mehrunes Dagon? How many people do you think have meddled with the Lament? It came from the lips of Morihaus, an eye witness, and while I see no glory in Pelinal as he did, I know his nature is likely spot-on. He is the Amulet of Kings, and Lady N. was right to point out he isn't from the future as much as he heralds the future. Distant time would be more precise.

Textual criticism is fine and dandy, but only when the text itself was not actually written for you to believe the story the way it is portrayed. You can apply it in the real world, but anything you read in world-building fiction such as this, you are expected to believe unless there is a clear indication on behalf of the real-world author that you should not.

these are the bits

it says his hand was made of a killing light - not that light shot forth from his hand - so MK is either contradicting or adding to this if he says it is a laser ... very strange

Yes, I see this bit says it was the armor he was arrayed in that was 'from the future time'.

So it appears that in other threads people have gone past what is written in the song of Pellinal.

However, if you look at the way this is written, it would appear to be a translation (fragmentary) of a document or documents that the translator does not completely understand - so how is Mehrunes Dagon mistaken?

imagine your an ancient egyptian and suddenly a dude with a lightbulb shows up. youre going to try and describe it as best you can, but it will still be a "glowing orb of white flame" or something, not a thin filament encased in glass which heats to an extremely high temperature and emits light. "killing light" is as good as the nedes could come to what it really was. not that it was a laser either, thats just another metaphor to help us get the general idea.

My friends,

I will take the unusual step of stating my conclusion first, with my grounds of argument presented subsequently. Herein is my conclusion:

The "Pelinal Whitestrake" of the Alessian Revolution was simply a man who took that name in order to mantle that entity.

Herein are my grounds:

1. First, "Pelinal" was not his original name; the individual chose that name. Observe: "That he took the name "Pelinal" was passing strange, no matter his later sobriquets, which were many." http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml#1) This passage lets us know that (a) "Pelinal" was a name that he, himself selected, and people wondered why, and ( B ) that "Pelinal" was a sobriquet. A "sobriquet" is simply a fancy word for a "nickname". (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sobriquet) Therefore, "Pelinal" was not his true name.

2. Second, we know that the man who became Pelinal is someone who mantled that entity. We know this because he was called a "god guiser" (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml#1), who is someone that assumes the likeness of a higher being, acts like that being, and through those actions, becomes that being. More important to this conclusion is that he is also called "Pelinal the Third" when spoken of as having "incarnated" twice before. Incarnation is where a divine being becomes a mortal, which is proven in Pelinal's case when Morihaus states "You are blood-made-glorious, uncle, and will come again, as fox animal or light." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/adabala.shtml)

THEREFORE, I state that Pelinal was a man of unknown name who assumed the guise of the Uncle of Morihaus through his actions and actually became this being. However, the answer to the question of his race is, more than likely, the same Cyro-Nordic Nedic precursor of the modern Imperial, although it becomes meaningless once his actions transform him into that 'ada-blooded being we now call "Pelinal Whitestrake".

I hope that my perspective on this issue has done more to illuminate than to further "muddy the waters", for if the latter, then the ire of JHUNAL shall swiftly be upon me. Heedless though I may stride, with eyes wide upon into the Darkness, I take the torch further inward. I look forward to any responses, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

I am sorry, Mehrunes Dagon, if my post read like I was lashing out at you. The first question was meant to be a jab at your namesake. I just wanted to make that clear.

TWM, he is refered to as the Shezarrine for a reason

Here is my latest theory! ('oh no!' the cry goes up in one accord)
Probably ill-founded, but just spitting it out

In thinking of a relation between Akatosh-Lorkhan, I have thought of this. Pelinal is Lorkhan. Pelinal is not Lorkahn. Pelinal is Akatosh, Pelinal is not Akatosh.

He is just a part of this ongoing conflict between these two, a manifestation of them both in one being, perhaps at times tending toward the one and then toward the other, but never his own being. He is torn between two beings, gods even, and thus mad in his own way (but not in Sheogorath kind of way) He exhibits qualities of both -perhaps he does jump through time, which is OK since he's Akatosh. I may look into this more, and examine known sources along with this idea. But for now I shall go hide (I think I hear birds, guys)

He is certainly "a manifestation of them both in one being, perhaps at times tending toward the one and then toward the other." The Moth Priests claim that Akatosh is insane, so his periodic madness results from that as well. His utter ruthlessness comes from bloodthirsty Shor, and being conflicted probably causes plenty of angst and touchiness on top of that.

(Moths, not birds.)