What race is the Dragonborn supposed to be in lore? : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:52 am

It always surprises me how people demand MOAR LOAR!, and especially official clarification of that lore.

In my Skyrim lore (mine being the only important lore there is), my Dragonborn is whatever race I'm playing at the time.

The word "lore" is about offensive to me as the word "immersion" (i.e.: it's really [censored] offensive).

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:08 pm

One of the loading screens says that Tiber was a Nord.

The Nerevarine totally should be a Dunmer.

I'm actually ditching my Bosmer and re-rolling a Nord battlemage because I can stand the fact that it seems the entire game was written expecting me to be a Nord. Exactly how I felt in Morrowind about the Dark Elves. It's their land; the story is about their heroes, their history; and the current events are about their politics. It only makes sense that you'd want to play as one.

How Morrowind implies the character to be a Dunmer if the Profecy that you hear in your dreams, from the Dissident Priests and from Azura herself tells that the Nerevarine is an outsider and an outlander, clearly someone who does not belong to the land of the Dunmer. You could be a Dunmer by chance, as there are dunmers in all the Empire, but it was never sugested that the Nerevarine should be a Dunmer.

It's even ironic what you say since all the failed incarnations were dunmers.

I see the same thing in Skyrim. You're an outlander, caught in the midle of a conflict while crossing the borders between the Imperial province and Skyrim. The Dragonborn could be of any race.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 pm

One of the loading screens says that Tiber was a Nord.

The Nerevarine totally should be a Dunmer.

I'm actually ditching my Bosmer and re-rolling a Nord battlemage because I can stand the fact that it seems the entire game was written expecting me to be a Nord. Exactly how I felt in Morrowind about the Dark Elves. It's their land; the story is about their heroes, their history; and the current events are about their politics. It only makes sense that you'd want to play as one.

I actually feel a bit awkward playing as a Nord since the character often must ask about things that you should already know.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:25 am

There is a book somewhere that clears this all up.. i think it actually is called "The Dragonborn" and it has the Empire Dragon symbol on it.. basically, even though the Septims where called Dragonborn, it is sort a misconcepted title. Tiber Septim has ever only been the actual Dragonborn (apart from the player character), his family just sort of took on the name, the only reason they are able to wear the Amulet of Kings is not because they have the soul of a dragon, but because there familys line was blessed by Akatosh's blood, and as long as they keep faithful to there Dragon blood blessing, they will still be able to wear the Amulet. But back on topic, they are not ACTUAL Dragonborn like Tiber Septim was, it was just a title that sort of stuck, the fact that he was destined to be born with the soul of a dragon and the blessing of his family line are two seperate events and circumstances. So in real.. anyone can be born with the soul of a dragon, but only Tiber and the character of Skyrim was Dragonborn, as the gods needed them to save/change the world in times of great need.

I think this is correct. The dragon blood power is the consequence of Divine fiat...not genetics.
This is taken from 'The Book of the Dragonborn' which is found in the starting dungeon.
"Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed. Those who become Emperor and light the Dragonfires are surely Dragonborn - the proof is in the wearing of the Amulet and the lighting of the Fires. But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them? All that we can say is that it is both, and neither - a divine mystery."

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:14 am

There is no canonical race for the hero in any of the main TES games.

No there isn't. It's all so you can play any of the characters. But if you were to ask what race should the dragonborn be.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Both sides have teories. If it wasn't hereditary it would still make sense that his brothers kin were Dragonborn because they could have been given the blessing. And maybe Akatosh did not care if Pelagius was mad, since he wouldn't rule forever. I believe the years he ruled could seem few and meaningless for the God of Time.
What you present as evidence can be viewed from both sides and does not prove anything. If I say that it is bestowed by Akatosh it does not make it less true if you point out that all Septim Emperors were Dragonborn since he could have decided to grant all of them the blessing.
In short: Your "evidence" does not disprove the "Not heredital" theory since it can be interpretet either way.

Another thing I find interresting is the theory about the Septims being granted the Dragonblood when they relit the Dragonfires. This would also explain how a dunmer with no ties to Talos could be a Dragonborn Empress better than the heritage theory.

As for the Dragonfires not being relit might have to do with the fact that I think it was Talos who started the tradition of darkening the fires on the Emperors death. A very bad idea IMO.

Marting never relit the fires, but he was dragonborn.

Tiber Septim was dragonborn before he became the emperor. He performed no ritual, nor was he particularly pious.

While there is no diffinitive proof there are reasons to believe that the blessing is hereditary, if for no other reason than the fact that its name is tied to blood.

There is no evidence of any individual who started out as a non Dragonborn and became one later in life, except for maybe Alessia during the last few seconds of her life. It appears that the moment you are born, you are dragonborn and it sure as hell seems that your children become dragonborn even if they do not perform any rituals and even worship daedra.

If we look at the nature of a Dragon as being conquerors and dominators than it is not strange that people who rise to power often happen to have Dragonblood.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:57 pm

Without any dragons to slay, being Dragonborn is sort of an academic distinction (except for the Amulet of Kings). There could, maybe, been lots of Dragonborn through the ages, but who would know since there weren't any dragons? It's kind of like being an ace airplane pilot in a world without any planes.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:59 pm

Not really on topic, but is your name based on the guitar brand? Got me a hollowbody ii =P

Yes it is, they're great guitars! :biggrin:

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:16 am

Marting never relit the fires, but he was dragonborn.

Tiber Septim was dragonborn before he became the emperor. He performed no ritual, nor was he particularly pious.

While there is no diffinitive proof there are reasons to believe that the blessing is hereditary, if for no other reason than the fact that its name is tied to blood.

There is no evidence of any individual who started out as a non Dragonborn and became one later in life, except for maybe Alessia during the last few seconds of her life. It appears that the moment you are born, you are dragonborn and it sure as hell seems that your children become dragonborn even if they do not perform any rituals and even worship daedra.

If we look at the nature of a Dragon as being conquerors and dominators than it is not strange that people who rise to power often happen to have Dragonblood.

Correct, there i no proof for a possibility of becoming Dovahkiin later in life, but Bethesda themselves put the theory on the table which essentially means we cannot ignore it. Also IIRC the Book of the Dragonborn states that "Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself" which essentially disproves the theory that one can be Dragonborn simply by being of the same bloodline as someone who was/is.

At the end of the day I believe Bethesda themselves have not defined the Dragonborn and how it is bestowed yet. IIRC Todd Howard mentioned in an interview that "being Dragonborn essentially means being chosen by the gods".

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:17 pm

Correct, there i no proof for a possibility of becoming Dovahkiin later in life, but Bethesda themselves put the theory on the table which essentially means we cannot ignore it. Also IIRC the Book of the Dragonborn states that "Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself" which essentially disproves the theory that one can be Dragonborn simply by being of the same bloodline as someone who was/is.

At the end of the day I believe Bethesda themselves have not defined the Dragonborn and how it is bestowed yet. IIRC Todd Howard mentioned in an interview that "being Dragonborn essentially means being chosen by the gods".

The author of the book is clueless, for him it is a mystery. He gives us food for thought, but no facts whatsoever.

Another good example is that ancestors of the blades recognized Reman as Dragonborn and did all they could to protect his lineage so they could continue to serve the Dragonborn. If it is not hereditary what would be the point? Those same ancestors of the blades invaded an entire continent to find a single dragonborn, if it was as simple as performing some lighting of the fires ritual i doubt they would have, or at the very least they would let one of their own leaders light the fires and become a dragonborn.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:19 pm

It's hereditary within dynasties, but the three dynasties are not related, so it is not just hereditary.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:29 pm

It's hereditary within dynasties, but the three dynasties are not related, so it is not just hereditary.

This seems like the most logical way of thinking about it to me.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:12 pm

It's hereditary within dynasties, but the three dynasties are not related, so it is not just hereditary.

You are probably right with that assumption

There is however an issue with Tiber Septim, he founded the dynasty and then that dynasty died off. So the Empire went to the children of his brother and…wait for it…they were dragonborn.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:01 pm

The author of the book is clueless, for him it is a mystery. He gives us food for thought, but no facts whatsoever.

Another good example is that ancestors of the blades recognized Reman as Dragonborn and did all they could to protect his lineage so they could continue to serve the Dragonborn. If it is not hereditary what would be the point? Those same ancestors of the blades invaded an entire continent to find a single dragonborn, if it was as simple as performing some lighting of the fires ritual i doubt they would have, or at the very least they would let one of their own leaders light the fires and become a dragonborn.

And it will remain a ystery for us as well, until Bethesda decides to set tha Dragonborn lore in stone(so to speak). We cannot prove that it is hereditary end of story.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:47 pm

All we know is, he's called The Stig.

Quoted.

For.

Truth.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:35 am

And it will remain a ystery for us as well, until Bethesda decides to set tha Dragonborn lore in stone(so to speak). We cannot prove that it is hereditary end of story.

There has never been a case where a child of a dragonborn was not a dragonborn
There has never been a case where someone became a dragonborn without being born one
There has never been ANY evidence that some sort of a ritual is required to become one
Aside for MAYBE Alyssia we have never had Akatosh award someone the blessing
There is evidence to sugest that if you discover that you are dragonborn, your brother will be dragonborn as well

Hmmm….right it can’t possibly be hereditary

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:40 am

Dragonborn, not dragonborn, dragonfires, heredity. ... This is what happens when we use the scientific method in TES religons-- the same thing with religions IRL. My brain asplodes.

Roll a Will (-2) check or lose 2 sanity. If you lose all sanity, you are devoured. :>
...
oh damn

You don't actually know this. A septim might have spent a bit too much time with a lusty argonian maid...

I found this very, very charming. That emperor didn't last too long. Too many maids.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:43 pm

No, but there is proof that it is bestowed. Someone have to get it from Akatosh, even if it happens to be herditary. Before Bethesda clearify this I am not going to change my mind, because I do not see any proof that it is hereditary.

The Nerevarine of course was a Dragon-born as well... As was the current Dragonborn of Skyrim. Considering that the hwole premise of the TES games is that we can decide where our character came from, I think that pretty much disproves that is hereditary.

Also:

"It is unknown how Mankar Camoran was able to wear the Amulet of Kings, since only those of Dragon blood can wear it. However, it is said in the Making of Oblivion Documentary, that Mankar Camoran is descended from another line of Princes, and is trying to claim Tamriel for them. This may provide insight as why he can wear the Amulet of Kings."

As for the Septims, with the exception of Tiber Septim, there is NO evidence to suggest that any of them were Dragonborn, just that they had the "dragonblood" - i.e. they were missing the dragonsoul required to be dragonborn.

"But should these Dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness...."~ Trials of St. Alessia, also found in Imperial City loading screens

It seems to me that the dragonfire and dragonblood protection of the Empire does not indicate that the Septim empires are dragonborn..

There IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT a child of a dragonborn was a dragonborn

Fixed for you.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:58 pm

There has never been a case where a child of a dragonborn was not a dragonborn
There has never been a case where someone became a dragonborn without being born one
There has never been ANY evidence that some sort of a ritual is required to become one
Aside for MAYBE Alyssia we have never had Akatosh award someone the blessing
There is evidence to sugest that if you discover that you are dragonborn, your brother will be dragonborn as well

Hmmm….right it can’t possibly be hereditary

There is no proof that there have never been a dragonborns child that were nt dragonborn.
And I don't say it is any evidence. I say we cannot ignore the possibility since the theory have been added with Skyrim.
What about Talos or Reman Cyrodiil? We don't know anything about how they became dragonborn. Nothing supports them being of St. Alessias blood.
"There is evidence to suggest" Exactly, there are suggestions that it might be hereditarey. There. Is. No. Proof.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:02 pm

the septims were not all dragonborn, they just had a title, it is clear they never had the soul of a dragon (it is not heriditary and they are said to have blood of the dragon) and without the soul of a dragon you are not dovakiin (which is dragonborn that we play as). anyway, dovakiin can be any race, they are jsu tborn with the soul of a dragon because divine intervention

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:26 am

There has never been a case where a child of a dragonborn was not a dragonborn

That's an assumption. Being dragonborn isn't something you can so easily tell, so how do we know, for instance, whether Uriel VII's legitimate children were dragonborn? They never tried absorbing a dragon soul, they never tried wearing the Amulat of Kings, and never went through the dragonfires ceremony to tell whether they were blessed by Akatosh.

There has never been a case where someone became a dragonborn without being born one

Again, an assumption. How do you know everyone who was dragonborn was so from birth, and didn't become one later in life? There's only one case of someone who was dragonborn at birth, Reman Cyrodiil (but I'm not sure many standard rules apply when his mother was a hill..).

Aside for MAYBE Alyssia we have never had Akatosh award someone the blessing

"But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them?"
i.e., it speculates that lighting the dragonfires and wearing the Amulet was a sign of Akatosh's blessing (that second bit is really horribly worded, ugh).

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:06 pm

Just read "The Book of the Dragonborn".. one you find in the beginning. I never read it before so I said what the hey? (Lil bit of a read, aint no 2-3 pager lol)

But from what I've found out you are THE VERY LAST Dragonborn, PERIOD. There can possibly by 2 coinciding with each other (being alive at the same time), but this has never been confirmed.

I'd say either Nord, Breton, or Imperial.. it's one of em. But it doesn't really matter honestly. I like having an Imperial as DB because they have "Voice of the Emperor" etc. They're known to be good with their speech.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:29 am

Argonian would make the most sense in terms of looks