What is right?

Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:33 pm

[b]

I disagree, I have a moral position believing that this dehumanizing of people is wrong. For instance say 10 people were killed in Iraq yesterday. Most people's reaction will be to srug it off it doesn't matter to them, now say 10 people from your country were killed in Iraq yesterday, you might feel a little bit of national indignation, now say 10 of your family members were killed in Iraq today, then you might actually have an emotional response they were your family. Most people back in the day had an understanding of that, that those 10 people are somebodies family and would feel empathy towards them, now adays that is greatly lacking and that is why I'm morally deterred by supporting a game that would aid in that movement.


I do get what your saying but I again I say your blaming the wrong guy, games (like TES) are fantasy and are just games meant for a mature audience, an audience that has already moral values and judgment.

To tell you the truth, I find a lot of western news agencies and movies extremely offensive and 10K times more infuriating and dehumanizing since I'm from the middle east and I don't like them showing that our sprawling gulf metropolises and good natured hospitable people (most of them that is) are nomadic barbarians that live in tents and shot people with AKs.

Take the transformers movies, what a load of crap they were, did you see how they showed Qatar, or Egypt ??!! ffs I went to Qatar and they have no poverty and they could buy America and sell it 10 times over, and there cities look like cities from startrek, and Egypt! dude that country looks like any other civilized country, sure they have the poor suburbs, but who doesn't (Qatar doesn't :P) they showed it as a desert waste land with people riding camels all over the place AGAIN.

check out Lebanon, or Emirates....etc, use google don't believe the idiotic media, THAT my friend is what you should be objecting about NOT ES or video games, that's real life stuff that you should feel bad about, stop blaming games already, and GTA and other mature games are not meant to be played by children under 18, if they do then their parents are retards.
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Lucky Girl
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 7:51 pm

That's stupid, no one cried when crusaders marched to massacre a bunch of muslims (except the muslims). Industrialized countries gave two stinks for the starving children in third world countries 50 years ago, just like now. We are all of us desensitized, because we understand people die and we can't change that.

Now your saying you support the act of killing in a game as long as it feels like your not really killing someone? That's desensitizing. I say add gore, add a true death rattle, make feel the act of taking someones life and maybe then I can start asking true thought provoking things. In stead of just slashing my way through a town people like they were insects or daisies.

But then again it's a game, maybe it shouldn't be anything more than a GAME.


If you're going to bring that about the Muslims were the one conquering and invading years before the crusades. But that is not something that's supposed to be discussed in the forums.
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Krystal Wilson
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:11 am

I think Unclellama hit it on the head. While I sympathise with the OP, I've always thought that the way violence is sanitised in many games and films is far more frightening than the kind of violence depicted in FO3. If you don't want to see blood, then fair enough (and I don't want to see TES go overboard)- but I'm not sure whether it's really a 'moral' issue- since FO can be read as both a condemnation and a glorification of violence- even both at the same time.

Then again, it does creep me out when some kid starts talking about how he wants to be able to kill whole villages with lots of gore etc.
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Gaelle Courant
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 10:32 am

Morals are a set of principles that inform someone's actions and choices.

What is immoral?

A teen mother neglecting her child to water her crops on Farmville?

Or someone with no obligations for the weekend shooting imaginary characters on a video game.

I do not believe it is possible for any video game to "desensitize" a human being to erode their natural distaste for real-life gore. For the sake of argument even if there were a magical video game that could instantly erode all of your moral principles and turn you into a degenerate, it would not be "moral" or "immoral" to choose whether to become desensitized. The morality comes into play only when making choices and taking actions that affect other people. Even such a person who had become magically "desensitized" would still be responsible for their own actions and choices.
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Beast Attire
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 2:33 pm

[quote name='RevolverZarriel' timestamp='1295656922' post='17037008']
That's stupid, no one cried when crusaders marched to massacre a bunch of muslims (except the muslims).
:rofl:
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Sarah Bishop
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:53 pm

I don't give a damn about gore and violence but six is a must in Skyrim I mean all those kids how did they show up all of a sudden. I hope there is promiscuity, prostitution and at least some kind of blind six as in you seduce/pay, then go to bed and bam! black screen and when you wake up your fatigue and morale may be a little altered lol. Of course inter-racial six will be subject to the most promiscuous npcs, although I don't know how much pleasure a little male bosmer (voiced like in Oblivion) can do to a massive orc female.
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Hannah Whitlock
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:10 am

I don't give a damn about gore and violence but six is a must in Skyrim I mean all those kids how did they show up all of a sudden. I hope there is promiscuity, prostitution and at least some kind of blind six as in you seduce/pay, then go to bed and bam! black screen and when you wake up your fatigue and morale may be a little altered lol. Of course inter-racial six will be subject to the most promiscuous npcs, although I don't know how much pleasure a little male bosmer (voiced like in Oblivion) can do to a massive orc female.

Well you were born, I didn't need to see your parents having six to know that.
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brenden casey
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 1:23 pm

TES won't have as much blood or gore as Fallout did. In Fallout, it was part of the believability/immersion factor. In a violent post apocalyptic wasteland, such violent scenes are common place. But Skyrim is not Fallout, and it will not have nearly as many bodies or gore. (Not to mention gore bags, haha)
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Add Meeh
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 3:12 pm

To me Fallouts gore is pretty much a caricature of violence, it's so over the top that it's almost comical.

Other than that, a person without some kind of severe derrangement would be able to tell the difference between fiction and reality. Though I guess you could
question the productiveness of running around and hacking fictional people into pieces.

And as for nudity and six... I can just say: Thank God that I live in europe and not usa.
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Chrissie Pillinger
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:14 pm

Morality can be tricky to apply to a video game. For example, some have complained that inclusion of the Dark Brotherhood quest line in Oblivion condones an assassin's lifestyle in a game because the NPC's have such an over-the-top, psychotic worship of death. Others could argue that portraying an assassin's lifestyle that way actually serves as criticism of it.

As another example, in the quest Unfriendly Competition, grave robbing is characterized as deeply offensive. Yet, who plays Oblivion without constantly looting the dead (many are enemies, but there are lots of coffins, too).

I care about morality, but I honestly don't know how to answer what is right regarding level of 'mature' content in any way that is remote comprehensive. Even if the moral boundaries can be defined with certainty, practically speaking, it still comes down to each person's individual preferences. Play what you like. Pass on what you don't.

As for me, there was more gore in Fallout 3 and more six in Fallout New Vegas (though it was Vegas, after all) than I would have preferred. But both were better suited to those otherwise awesome games than to TES because Fallout is a different kind of role playing experience. I found them far less offensive than comments added for no other purpose than to disparage the thread or the OP.

We're all speculating ad infinitum (it's fun!) and talking about what we hope for. Some hope for more six and/or gore; others for less. I hope for wonder, danger, beauty, action, mystery, challenge, and general coolness. I expect that to include bloodshed and pretty ladies in just the right amounts.
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Miss Hayley
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 2:48 pm

I think people are a little to quick to dismiss the point raised by the OP. Everyone simply jumps and says "if you buy a M game you should expect gore/six/mature content" and thinks it answers the question. The important point raised is whether Bethesda should care about the effects their games have on an audience. Some people would say that if people choose to buy the game, it doesn't matter because they chose to buy the game. I for one know that I wouldn't want to sell cocaine to addicts, even though they chose to buy it from me. We are all responsible for our decisions. Bethesda is responsible for their decision to include elements that could effect their audience. Whether they are willing to do so is their choice. Everyone is quick to dismiss the effect of any media on their personality, because we like to feel like we are perfectly in control of our brains. Hate to break it to you, but you aren't...This isn't to say that video games make you a murderer. A lot of people here are guilty of an "either/or fallacy", where either proposition A or B is correct. Just because A is false (video games don't cause me to murder innocents IRL), it doesn't mean B is true (video games have no effect on me). We intuitively normalize what we see around us (because that is what is normal to us). If our surrounding environment is filled with violence, that becomes normal. It is why we no longer respond to newscasts talking about the deaths of many innocents, we ARE desensitized. Now, this doesn't mean that one negative effects of TES is sufficient to show that Bethesda shouldn't make the game, but it is a factor to take into consideration, and NOT meaningless to discuss. Maybe other forumers don't care whether Bethesda has a conscience, but I do...

Note: I am not suggesting they tone down violence from Oblivion levels, as I appreciate the game, even acknowledging one negative effect on myself. But silly hate on the OP without understanding of the issue just makes you look exactly that, uninformed.
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Glu Glu
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 11:34 am

Some call it "Mature" content, but is it really. It is indeed content for advlts on a battlefield, but not something for enjoyment.

These kinds of games are required to be played by military men for one reason. In the past during times of war many soldiers died before ever shooting their guns. Why is that? Because they understood that was another human on the other side of that barrel, with family. Because they had a moral hesitation. These kinds of "games" are meant to suppress that reaction, it's called desensitizing.
'Course not.
It seems designed to play to a need for empowerment; an escape to a reactive where you can win instead of loose. Sells well too. (I doubt the commercial games are intended to suppress ~though they do). I don't consider a game like that to be an RPG; Roleplaying is about empathy after all. :shrug:

**See... the one thing about RPG's that are not FPP, is that they are not depicting the player as the one killing enemies. Fallout lost its GURPS license for being too violent, but even Fallout never depicted the player as an active "murderer" ~Fallout 3 does when the player decides to attack town's folk. In Fallout it was always the PC doing the violence, and the PC would even hit or miss on their own ability with the weapon.
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Mari martnez Martinez
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 7:29 pm

Maybe other forumers don't care whether Bethesda has a conscience, but I do...


People are buying luxury items like video games when there are people dying of starvation in some countries. Isn't it immoral to use your wealth for your own pleasure instead of preventing the death of these people?

Where is your empathy? Do you not have a conscience? You don't need to play Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, Witcher 2, or any other game. If you do, you are choosing to let these people die so that you can have your fun.

On top of it, think about how much good Bethesda could do with the money they are using to fund the development of the game. They should donate all their money to help people instead of making Skyrim. It's the only moral thing to do.

[/snark]
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:53 am

This topic is skirting the edge of real world politics ~not yet, but soon.

If possible, we should stick to games and game related examples.

*Just saying... :unsure:
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Justin
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:25 am

People are buying luxury items like video games when there are people dying of starvation in some countries. Isn't it immoral to use your wealth for your own pleasure instead of preventing the death of these people?

Where is your empathy? Do you not have a conscience? You don't need to play Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, Witcher 2, or any other game. If you do, you are choosing to let these people die so that you can have your fun.

On top of it, think about how much good Bethesda could do with the money they are using to fund the development of the game. They should donate all their money to help people instead of making Skyrim. It's the only moral thing to do.

[/snark]


your reasoning is sorely flawed. Bethesda (like the cocaine dealer, weather you consider that position moral or not is not the point) has a responsibility to who they serve, we are not trying to sell those people cardboard boxes instead of food. What they do is up to them, who serves them they have their own obligation, I have an obligation to myself and my family, bethesda as a company has a responsibility to it's consumers, like a restaurant has a responsibility to their consumers. if they want to ad arsenic to their food, and it still taste good is that right? It's the same matter. (not saying it will cause deaths to those who take things too literally)
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Mr. Ray
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:03 am

I can't comment on Fallouts gore level because I have yet to play it, but I can comment on other games. Dead Space is gory as hell, but it fits the atmosphere of the game and has a rating that fits as well. I say that if the game environment calls for such things then so be it and if people of the games rated age cannot tell what is right or wrong then the fault is in them. If games are at fault for a desensitized youth then all media types are to blame as well, let's face it our world is no longer in the realm of leave it to beaver. I think that no amount of media can prepare anyone for actual physical trauma, which is why people that experience real world violence actually tend to dislike it; only the mental types would actually enjoy seeing someone get shot in the face.
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jasminε
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 10:45 am

People are buying luxury items like video games when there are people dying of starvation in some countries. Isn't it immoral to use your wealth for your own pleasure instead of preventing the death of these people?

Where is your empathy? Do you not have a conscience? You don't need to play Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, Witcher 2, or any other game. If you do, you are choosing to let these people die so that you can have your fun.

On top of it, think about how much good Bethesda could do with the money they are using to fund the development of the game. They should donate all their money to help people instead of making Skyrim. It's the only moral thing to do.

[/snark]

Pretty much.

Leave your self-indulgent morality at the door.

It's a game. Nothing more.
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Chad Holloway
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 12:31 pm

That's stupid, no one cried when crusaders marched to massacre a bunch of muslims (except the muslims).
:rofl:
[/quote]

I believe the pope apologized for that barbaric act, and his apology was accepted, better late than never I guess :P, and they did not massacre "Muslims" they massacred middle eastern people, most were just civilians, even the Christians/jews in Jerusalem got axed.

oh and ES is a game get over it
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Mel E
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:40 am

your reasoning is sorely flawed. Bethesda (like the cocaine dealer, weather you consider that position moral or not is not the point) has a responsibility to who they serve, we are not trying to sell those people cardboard boxes instead of food. What they do is up to them, who serves them they have their own obligation, I have an obligation to myself and my family, bethesda as a company has a responsibility to it's consumers, like a restaurant has a responsibility to their consumers. if they want to ad arsenic to their food, and it still taste good is that right? It's the same matter. (not saying it will cause deaths to those who take things too literally)


So, your point was not about empathy or desensitization? It was only about responsibility? You're very confusing.
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Monika
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 10:30 am

I can't comment on Fallouts gore level because I have yet to play it, but I can comment on other games. Dead Space is gory as hell, but it fits the atmosphere of the game and has a rating that fits as well. I say that if the game environment calls for such things then so be it and if people of the games rated age cannot tell what is right or wrong then the fault is in them. If games are at fault for a desensitized youth then all media types are to blame as well, let's face it our world is no longer in the realm of leave it to beaver. I think that no amount of media can prepare anyone for actual physical trauma, which is why people that experience real world violence actually tend to dislike it; only the mental types would actually enjoy seeing someone get shot in the face.

At one time it was worse, and became (in places) like 'leave it to beaver'. Your post almost makes it sound like we [rightfully?] out-grew civility and respect.

Gore has its place, and it is certainly supposed to be in Fallout, but Fallout got away with it, and Fallout 3 could not. Before it shipped, I wondered what the transition would be from Fallout's incineration critical to First Person photo realistic gore... crackling skin, and human facial expressions... I didn't think they could do it without an advlt rating.

**and they didn't :shrug:

Even though Fallout had 70 pixel sprites, the actions implied were horrific, in some cases far worse that what you see in Fallout 3 (and I mean the supermutants, raiders and shopkeepers).
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Richard
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 5:40 am

People are buying luxury items like video games when there are people dying of starvation in some countries. Isn't it immoral to use your wealth for your own pleasure instead of preventing the death of these people?

Where is your empathy? Do you not have a conscience? You don't need to play Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, Witcher 2, or any other game. If you do, you are choosing to let these people die so that you can have your fun.

On top of it, think about how much good Bethesda could do with the money they are using to fund the development of the game. They should donate all their money to help people instead of making Skyrim. It's the only moral thing to do.

[/snark]


Nowhere did I say that any of us are immune from our actions. I do think we are culpable for pursuing luxuries at the expense of allowing many people to die and suffer. That being said, I still prefer playing video games to donating. Where did I say that I stood on moral high ground? I don't think your snark serves any purpose. My objection was to people thinking that there is no blame. All actions have consequences, and blame can be given as a result. I stated my position (that I accept the negative aspects of the game), but that doesn't remove Beth's decision in regards to how they portray mature content. To conclude, please read something before taking a condescending tone. My point was that the tradeoff between realism and desensitization DOES exist, and I hope Beth takes it into consideration, NOT that I am a perfect person whose every action is perfect.
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Stephanie Kemp
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 11:28 am

Wow. Really?

Screw that [censored], i want to kill some monsters and bandits! I can promise you that the feeling of killing a real human being and a computer animation will NEVER be the same.
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Soph
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 6:34 am

Gore is fine, but not to the extent of Fallout 3. If you look like you cut a guys head off then it should come off. Realism is the key word. Maybe you should feel guilty. Its part of the experience of being a Dragonborn who is the only one who can save Tamriel.
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Stephanie Nieves
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 11:17 am

I think people are a little to quick to dismiss the point raised by the OP. Everyone simply jumps and says "if you buy a M game you should expect gore/six/mature content" and thinks it answers the question. The important point raised is whether Bethesda should care about the effects their games have on an audience. Some people would say that if people choose to buy the game, it doesn't matter because they chose to buy the game. I for one know that I wouldn't want to sell cocaine to addicts, even though they chose to buy it from me. We are all responsible for our decisions. Bethesda is responsible for their decision to include elements that could effect their audience. Whether they are willing to do so is their choice. Everyone is quick to dismiss the effect of any media on their personality, because we like to feel like we are perfectly in control of our brains. Hate to break it to you, but you aren't...This isn't to say that video games make you a murderer. A lot of people here are guilty of an "either/or fallacy", where either proposition A or B is correct. Just because A is false (video games don't cause me to murder innocents IRL), it doesn't mean B is true (video games have no effect on me). We intuitively normalize what we see around us (because that is what is normal to us). If our surrounding environment is filled with violence, that becomes normal. It is why we no longer respond to newscasts talking about the deaths of many innocents, we ARE desensitized. Now, this doesn't mean that one negative effects of TES is sufficient to show that Bethesda shouldn't make the game, but it is a factor to take into consideration, and NOT meaningless to discuss. Maybe other forumers don't care whether Bethesda has a conscience, but I do...

Note: I am not suggesting they tone down violence from Oblivion levels, as I appreciate the game, even acknowledging one negative effect on myself. But silly hate on the OP without understanding of the issue just makes you look exactly that, uninformed.



So, your point was not about empathy or desensitization? It was only about responsibility? You're very confusing.


your memory is poor I was referring to his point. in response to what you were trying to denounce.
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Amber Hubbard
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:54 pm

Nowhere did I say that any of us are immune from our actions. I do think we are culpable for pursuing luxuries at the expense of allowing many people to die and suffer. That being said, I still prefer playing video games to donating. Where did I say that I stood on moral high ground?


If the "Maybe other forumers don't care whether Bethesda has a conscience, but I do" comment was not meant to stake out a moral high ground then I apologize.

My point was that the tradeoff between realism and desensitization DOES exist, and I hope Beth takes it into consideration


I just won't buy into the "realistic violence causes long term desensitization" until I've seen good evidence.
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Jason Wolf
 
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