There have been thread after thread about DEMANDING more gore and six in TESV. But I would like to ask you, what is right? What is moral? Many people, like myself, have loved TES since daggerfall. We did not have the kind of gore that was in Fallout3 nor did we have a six scene like in Mass effect. Now I will admit I did like fallout, but a constant turn off was shooting people's brains out, and the raider hideouts dead bodies in a gruesome way hanging from places. Never had I played a game with such a complete lack of regard to people's minds. These are scenes that one might see on a real battlefield.

Some of you might think that's great, but is it really. Is killing really that great a thing? Is seeing a fellow human's head blown off something to be enjoyed? No, I would venture to say that it's not, and most who have been in such a battlefield could tell you the same. Some call it "Mature" content, but is it really. It is indeed content for advlts on a battlefield, but not something for enjoyment.

These kinds of games are required to be played by military men for one reason. In the past during times of war many soldiers died before ever shooting their guns. Why is that? Because they understood that was another human on the other side of that barrel, with family. Because they had a moral hesitation. These kinds of "games" are meant to suppress that reaction, it's called desensitizing.

Personally I didn't mind killing in past TES because they weren't real and there was no way I could consider them real, but when you make a game with that much realism and that much gore you are allowing yourself to get used to it. I believe there is a moral obligation on the part of the DEVs and the part of us players, to remember to have respect for human lives and to try and keep at least some of our "humanity" intact.

It is a video game. The scenes you describe are meant to instill a sense of authenticity.
If they game took place in a pretty forest and they said "This is a desert wasteland. Bodies strewn everywhere. And radioactive material abound" what would you see? What they told you to see, or the forest?
You removed elements of believability, and you directly remove that believability.

Oh goody, a thread about mature themes and in the first post it accuses the military of training the morals out of soldiers.

I think this one is gonna go downhill in a hurry.

This thread is ridiculous. Although I think all the threads DEMANDING more gore and six are also as ridiculous... advlt themes do not make good games good games. Hoping for more gore for the sake of having more gore is just stupid. It adds nothing to the game except shock value. Now, if adding more gore actually winds up adding to the game, then by all means. But, again, having gore for the sake of gore is just stupid.

Ex-military here. Yes it is part of training. Meant to save lives.

Duly noted and, to an extent, I agree with you. Excessive gore is ridiculous, and six in ES? Give me a break. Such things aren't what ES is all about. However, the inclusion of more "realism" (whatever that really means) in Elder Scrolls isn't ridiculous...in fact, it's necessary to carry the player into the game. Intensifying combat, upping the stakes, adding a bit more gore...these things, when used with moderation and responsibility, are meant to achieve that "gap" between the player and the game.

Still, I completely agree with you. Elder Scrolls, like the many epics of before (from Lord of the Rings to Lawrence of Arabia), is able to convey terror and fear without going the lazy way...through excessive gore, six scenes, etc. For me, going to the extreme is a sign that the developer isn't brave enough or smart enough to find a middle ground. This is unless, of course, the game is supposed to be excessive. The God of War series, for example, fits perfectly with slashing heads off and sleeping with naked women...but that's only because of the way the game lays itself out. Elder Scrolls in comparison is much more like Lord of the Rings: epic, expansive, traditionally dramatic, adventurous.

Daggerfall had nudity

I agree I think oblivion had more than enough "mature" content. I was completely satisfied with the little puff of blood that came every once in a while in morrowind.

Thank you, I agree. The same with Age Of Conan. It is meant to be violent and have naked women everywhere.

I don't fear for my humanity. I have a lot respect for human lives but "realistic" characters do not count as human. Do you have evidence that desensitization really occurs from games like Fallout 3 or Oblivion?

Don't forget six for the sake of having six in the game. That was really the biggest thing I didn't agree with from those threads. A little more gore wouldn't hurt but some of the gore that has been asked for is way too much.

Yes, it is.

Well since there is a civil war going on in Skyrim I halfway expect that to be shown in some authentic manner. Maybe you come upon caravans of refugees, torched farms and bodies.. or remnants of skirmishes.

Wars, civil or international are not pretty things. And it gets esspecially brutal when there are melee weapons rather than the guns we have today when you rarely see the enemy your shooting at. It's a whole different level of combat much more brutal, personal, and savage that few people today, not even some modern soldiers are able to comprehend.

You're exactly the kind of person that would blame a game like GTA for a teenager then knifing someone.

The kid would need to be messed up in the first place.

I've been watching six, violence and all the bad things I'm supposed to be protected from since about the age of 12. I still managed to get myself through University, and get a good job... and would you believe it. I don't ever compare morality from the real world to killing an elf in game.

I'm all for a gore on or off switch, but I think it's a pathetic argument that it incites violence in normal day situations without some previous problems in that person.

So...you don't like killing portrayed realistically because it turns you off, but you do like it portrayed fantastically because then you can do so with impunity.

While TES should give you options to use stealth and even Speechcraft to solve situations, if some bandit comes swinging at me, I'm not inclined to feel merciful. Maybe if he actually asks for mercy, but as they always fight to the death, I feel no guilt. Also, video game. Now, there are things I would feel uncomfortable doing in a video game regardless of knowing that it is a fantasy world. I would never enjoy say, torturing someone, or killing innocent people, especially if they are made life like. It's easy to go on killing sprees in Morrowind and Oblivion because everyone and their grandmother assaults you with whatever they have, but if NPCs had realistic reactions, I think most people wouldn't see the fun in slaughtering cowering, crying people.

Never said anything about desensitization occurring from oblivion. however from games like fall out, yes there is evidence, http://psychcentral.com/news/2006/07/28/video-games-desensitize-to-real-violence/137.html on one such study for example.

Daggerfall had full frontal nudity.

Its a game.

I did not say that it "incites violence" either, that's something you said. Also you are wrong I would never blame a GTA for a tenn knifing anyone. They still have their own choice to make. However I would say that people seeing that are less likely to empathize for that person that got killed. I would also say that kid had an easier time killing than if he didn't play GTA. So there you are.

I don't get my real life morals or humanity from video games.

It's just roleplaying.

Now I will give you that it DOES affect you seeing these kinds of images... if you are not accustomed to them and it'll take some time to adjust. I grew up regular on video games and violent TV etc.
Then I lived in place where I never saw violence or even really any form of media for like 18 months. And when I came back to a more western society I couldn't even look at a violent film or imagine playing a game with guns. It took a few months to get used to it again.

Actual Ex-military here. No you are wrong. We do not get morals trained out of us. There is an extensive system to keep the soldiers from abandoning morals. Do NOT engage an unarmed target. Do NOT fire unless fired upon. You can't even fire on someone who has an AK47 or some other weapon unless they engage you or are otherwise confirmed as hostiles.

We don't even get desensitized to violence by the military really until we get into actual combat. On the grenade obstacle course in BCT one of the privates on cleanup detail picked up a practice grenade that didn't go off. A second later some of his hand was gone, the rest was seriously burnt. Many of the other recruits panicked but the drill sergeants who had been overseas knew exactly what to do. Frankly the video I saw in Driver's Ed years before was more brutal.

Once again, I didn't mention anything about nudity, I mentioned six. If you want to claim you can have six with everything that moves in daggerfall than go ahead.

Would this desensitize players?
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-quest-Following_a_Lead.jpg



I don't have much respect for those researchers after reading their conclusions.

lol wow ur going mad overboard with this. u needto chill about "morals" and realize these are just video games and your taking ittoo serious. i dont want skyrim to be like fallout either i think its overdone but your actinglike they r killing real people. and i'll be straight up with u. nothing is wrong with desensitizing people. as long as they aren't doing it becuz of these games on the street but on the battlefield its a good thing to be able to make calculated decisions that are not effected by ur "morals" morals have a time and place and a battlefield aint one of em. I think u shuld take this whole gorey video games thing a bit less serious. i dont even think about the gore thats not y i liked fallout or cod. i like the action.

Nudity is no big deal. (and I understand it is not the same thing as six).
I don't really like excessive gore though. But usually there is an option to turn it down or off.
I also don't need photorealistic games. mainly because it is a fantasy game. I like the art of games like Oblivion, and Skyrim will be even better than that.