...And I'm open to telling, but first you will need to explain to me your reasoning behind...


Frankly, I'm having serious difficulty wrapping my mind around how one can view this honestly.

When I understand, your perspective will surely influence my response to you about why its "too bad".

Well as I see thats decrease background description for character
I'd like to see start as blank character and as option for start predefined class character, now when perks thats really make difference between skills are introduced, classes chose can mean something unlike of previous games since there is perk limit and requirements for perks so not all of them can be available at the beginning.
So for example what can be done there is two ways to have classes in Skyrim both are work together well,

Blank Commoner beginning
First at beginning of game you can chose blank character without background and increased number of starting trait and perk points to distribute and chose between skills but lower starting skill levels in overall and maybe lower skill rates in which skills increase, so we have full control over character development by training skills and investing into perks like before having invested perk points in certain specialization will increase skill progression for this skill (e.g having much perks invested into marksman make marksman level faster) or even specialization path (e.g having large number of perk points invested in The Warrior path skills increase skill rates overall for all warrior skills even for thous thats not trained)
Start in default prison and chose equipment during escape, read some spell books or scrolls for learn some spells thats represent basic most useful cantrips.
During game playing player can join a faction or guild where will receive lowest rank and an low level perk from class specialization thats cannot be learned naturally and need special event: help of trainer or book in fraction training facility, so fractions and guilds chose will be more important as well doing certain quest what can give unique perk as reward as well as world exploration for looking such forgotten knowledge in books and hermit trainers.


And alternative optional way Background and Class beginning
Chose of background with class equipment and spells thats suit for such background, start in different location thats suit for such background and then by some way go to jail for default start or see dream with an prophesy or message from Aedra or Daedra, for alternative start of MQ or even not start it at all and ignore (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22699)
Class chose give some advantages and disadvantages for first skills thats associate with such class will have increased levels furtherer then blank character will have at start but all other skills will be decreased much more then blank character have, as well there already will be chosen certain high level perks thats have larger requirements then current character skill level or cannot be learned naturally and need help of trainer or book or received as reward as well such perk can have stages also so it will cannot be leveled furtherer until requirements are not met thats create vision of major and minor skills and hard training in background of character as well there can be already chosen advantage&disadvantage starting traits for character so player will have smaller number of free points to make more customizations then blank character has.

In overall such system looks like improved Daggerfall character creation with fixed flaws like too powerful invulnerabilities and not working traits, as well with support start as generic blank character fro developing during play.
TES always have such option for customization of class but it was redundant because of flaws in implementation.
Such system can also be used for different reasons like
- Literal description of class in game for NPC and player so it can be easy manageable variable for dialogues (%PCClass) or description of NPC profession.
- Easy perk assigment for NPC in CS so no need to manually choose from all 280 perks for each NPC created
- Auto leveling for NPC and player accordingly to class restriction with attribute distribution and perk assignment.


There also an mod for oblivion thats allow chose blank character similar to Skyrim and mod thats remove Birthsigns but for different reason then devs remove them from Skyrim so you can test them to have vision or illusion of Skyrim character developing as well there is certain mods thats add background and starting traits from beginning and alternative starts also, you can found them on Nexus.
Got No Class
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26012
Birthsign Zero
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25016

Would it be enough if you could add extra points in certain skills? No minor/major skills, it wouldn't do anything else, just a headstart in certain skills.

Actually thats will not enough for proper description of class specialization perks really suit better then just put some additional bonus points into skills, besides already confirmed thats skills will level faster and such bonus will not represent classes well and still leave them redundant.

So this is about classes...

Thing is in Skyrim you don't choose your class at the beginning, it takes its own form during gameplay. For background bonuses, a simple starting bonus on some skills would be enough.

Well why blank generic common character start must be solely and only right chose and there is no need of options even thous what was in previous games at all even now when skills become more unique and useful from perks powers?
Describe your arguments and facts please.
Besides both can work together in in game commoner start of novice in all skills and start as skilled apprentices in few skills who have Initial training in his specialization path, starting traits also really good feature or you think it need to be removed then say why.
As I already say having only background bonus will not make visible impact on gameplay since skills are leveled much faster then before and such bonus will become redundant at fast rate, perks are much better since they have visible limit and requirement.
List your arguments why initial increase of some skills will better, simple not fortified mentioning is not argument.

This is pretty much what I'm saying. A starting skill bonus, maybe a few starting perks wouldn't be bad (maybe perks, because it has been designed with a 50 limit in mind...).
We won't have it because... well, we can't choose our background in game.

What we won't have and shouldn't have is the whole minor/major skills, in other words, skills that adds more to your overall level, or it just raises faster, as it would limit your progress.

Dispel could be used offensively or defensively in Oblivion. You could use to it destroy a target's wards and buffs, or even to dispel his summoned creature (You had to target the summoner, not the creature itself), or you could use it to remove debuffs/magic based DoTs off yourself, and even your own wards/buffs.

Well in a dispute born truth, so you agree with thats chose of starting traits is good feature, in such cases why need remove Birthsigns from games since they are the same starting traits?
Why we cannot have even small background, thats affects starting perks, traits, equipment and spells even if all will start in prison but have different sets of equipment chosen traits and perks and memorized spells?
Does thats mean thats mages and warriors will start with the same equipment and spells, with the same skills and traits?
Even text background from answering question can help a lot to make characters more unique, besides in many games we can write own background also, I don't think we start as amnesiac character thats forgot all from his past, thats even more generic cliche then dragons, I will accept amnesiac character only if really good reason will be done and plot will account it.


Well how it will limit progress?
Dynamic implementation of minor/major skills having invested perk points in certain specialization will increase skill progression for this skill (e.g having much perks invested into marksman make marksman level faster) or even specialization path (e.g having large number of perk points invested in The Warrior path skills increase skill rates overall for all warrior skills even for thous thats not trained)
I think its logical since there is no attributes dependency, thats was an argument of against attributes thats anti-attributes fraction use before, character skilled in certain specialization path logically have developed attributes for such skill like Strength for two handed or Agility for marksman even you use such argument before, if starting trait can work as description of natural abilities of character so there can be Strong characters but not skilled, then main parameters and skill levels will represent training of body thats before was on attributes increased from +5 leveling.

There is also quote from Todd


Doest thats not will work with dynamic implementation of minor/major skills, I think it work well, invest more limited perk points into skill perks with requirements and receive increased skill rates for this skill then next level will come closer and you add another perk into it, while skills thats you are not train will have default rates because have no invested perks points but they are not limited and you can also mastery them to 100 just don't spend precious perks points on them so specialization and flexibility work both well in such concept.
This similar to custom class creation with choosing of minor/major skills but not in menu before game start, instead in smooth character developing during actual game.
While classes will already have predefined specialization path with unique class perks what not available at beginning for Jack of all trades commoners, but also will have lowered skills from other specialization paths.
Both work well in game why need to stick only with generic commoners when new system have all possibilities and great potential to have both?

I mainly meant perks already found under the skills, that you could get during gameplay, not unique traits that you can only get at the beginning. It would represent the background and natural abilities of the character and you could still progress in a different way in case you would change your mind.

And we won't have backgrounds because this way you can come up with one yourself. Even with a background generator it couldn't give you the exact background you might want. Like some people want to play as a descendant of the Neveraine, or the Neveraine himself, but I don't think a generator would have this option...

Dynamic minor/major skills sound alright, though I don't like the idea of more advanced skills progressing even faster. Also, I don't think the perk system will work that way, as you'll be only able to pick perks in a skill you're already skilled at.

My main argument actually is that you shouldn't have big game changing decisions at the very beginning when you haven't or barely even played the game. My example for this would be with Fallout 2 where I started with a character with Repair and Traps as tag skills, only to realize that it's useless, as there's barely anything to repair and there are next to no traps in the game after the tutorial temple, and you can't set traps yourself.

I agree with all of it, but dispel probably won't be in destruction- because its just that, destruction. But I suppose you could say that your "destroying" the effect

Well traits will add unique effects thats cannot be represented by skills or perks and before was tied to attributes as well with traits we can manage spell effects from alchemy, disease, powers since are based on natural abilities, I think racial traits use such system already in Skyrim so races still have powers and don't have difference in starting skills and parameters.
Such traits can have levels also and naturally can level automatically with level of character, such traits unlike of perks can have disadvantages and penalties as side effects as well there can completely bad traits from disease for example, since traits have icon and description thats will make disease for example something more then few red numbers in attribute screen.

Perks are not traits they are different layers of one system, perks have only advantages as essence skill mastery what can make real difference in skills, while traits can have both positive and negative effects, perks cannot be chosen so easily as traits at beginning since perks have limits and requirements (and nice if we cannot chose at all perks for commoners or chose only low levels ones from beginning while specialist can have access to middle and high level ones in cost of skill levels in other skill and certain traits disadvantages) while traits can be chosen in more numbers at beginning, acquired during game, and have variability in magnitude of various effects, traits can level naturally with character level just like leveled spells and be replaced by stronger ones on character maturity, perks have unique effects what can be hardcoded (certainly I dont want such thing, better if perks can e also editable and we be able add new perks) traits can be easily combinations of spell effects with leveling or included scripted spell effects, traits used for easy managing of hidden variables thats previously was affected by attributes so no need create independent spell effects calls for all of such variables where scripted effect can call them in trait, and such trait can be used for diseases or for alchemy.


I such cases write own completely unique background seems will be avaible only for PC players because CS, console gamers seems again will try imagine such feature.
But generator will have options for different chose of starting perks, traits, equipment and spells even if all will start in prison but have different sets of equipment chosen traits and perks and memorized spells, so mages of different schools warriors of different path and rogues of different specialization will have different starting equipment and memorized spells as well additionally classes can add certain advantages as class perks what not available for commoners at beginning due requirements but then will be available during game when requirement will met like middle and high levels perks at lowest ranks as special training for class, as well certain unique traits thats unavailable for commoners completely from beginning and available trough potions spells and rare books and as rewards in certain quests during game.
Even such small generator will help a lot for console games without modding tools.

Well more advanced skills progressing even faster not without consequences rare perk points spend on it, if you already mastered some perks in some skill thats mean you are talented in such skill so logically you will advance faster in such skill, besides accordingly to Todd words skills will advance fast only at low levels and at higher ones advancement will be slowed and you need to concentrate on certain skills to rise them faster I think adding perks is good example of such concentration on skill, but thats is not limit you from mastering skill to 100 without perk investment just it will be much slower then actual concentration on skill with perks.
About only able to pick perks in a skill you're already skilled at
Well I think there will be shared pool for perks in specialization path The Warrior will have own, The Mage will have own, leveling mage skills will not give you free perk points for warrior path, but there will be also requirement for perks and thats I believe already confirmed so perks can require have certain levels in one (or few skills for cross class perks) and/or level of character, in such cases having dynamic minor/major skills is even more important feature since perk investment will allow faster progression of skill thats is requirement for next level as well leveling of skills will rise level of character so fast specialization is need also for faster leveling of character, or player will spend money on trainers and spend time on searching of skill books.


For first few questions:
And what you done when release thats you roll bad character?
Another thing you put by self Repair and Traps as tag skills or use an predefined template for this?
Does thats was problem of Repair and Traps skills thats game doesn't have much things to repair and there is no traps in game while developers actually can add such things to game but don't do it and there is no way by self add such features where Repair and Traps skills can be useful?

Well big game changing decisions at the very beginning when you haven't or barely even played the game is good thing they are add replay-ability to game,
How removing of Birthsigns can tied with big game changing decisions at the very beginning when you haven't or barely even played the game?
All Birthsigns have logical descriptions and names so really need to be lesser minded to take The Mage for warrior character and then cry about game breaking and gimped characters, besids almost of them did not was really big game changing decisions I think only Atronach can be hard for newcomers but it has description about his properties so it not blind chose

So why need to remove them from game?
In such cases if some one fear a lot big game changing decisions at the very beginning, better to put such features into hardcoe mode then, so newcomers casuals will play their pink and fluffy Skyrim until become experienced enough to switch into complete and load of challenges game.

A streamlined character creation system isn't only for "newcomers and casuals." It shouldn't be possible to "roll a bad character" because that character should be able to compensate by gaining skill, just as in Skyrim. That was possible in past games too but could still result in broken scaled foes, etc. In Oblivion for example exploring peacefully in the Imperial City could result in leveling up all of your foes while your combat power was static. That made no sense.

Birth signs aren't that huge of a deal for me though I'm surprised they are gone. Each race will have a racial ability though, and from the sounds of it they will be fairly major.

I don't see anything yet that has convinced me that this has changed much. Without the ability to pick classes all skills will be at the default level for that race. In Oblivion at least by picking a class some of the skills would be boosted above the standard. Now there is nothing to help when you leave the first city and enter that level 1-10 area at level 7 due to leveling non-combat skills.

That could be true, but remember there will be some areas locked to certain level ranges so it probably won't be nearly as bad since there will be lower level areas to go to in order to hone your skills.

^^ i thought it looked out of place there too

Well I think most of fears comes from negative game experience because of flawed implementation of features, Oblivion has very fast skill advancement and broken leveling system thats why you can end with gimped character not because of major and minor skills and classes, but because flawed leveling and level scaling.
Mods thats reduce skill advancement and fix leveling make miracles with classes and major and minor skills, there is also mods thats add similar to perks specializations for classes thats level up with character skills and level, there also mods thats change attributes to actually govern skills and add many checks for features so they work in game in much better way, there is also mods thats remove +5 leveling mechanic and replace with much smother one, modders fix such flaws and improve system.
So does thats was need of such large streamline of system when new system have wide range of possibilities improve classes and major&minor skills?
Not all want play as custom class character what transformed into generic commoner who can evolve during game into various forms, adding classes as option not replace thous commoner I think good does not?

Birth signs important to me because they was one of example of starting traits which one can help much in describing natural abilities of character such feature really need into game where is no full fledged attributes system like Skyrim and partially previous TES games, reason why they was removed because

Well what kind of game-ruining decision can Birth Sign do?
For first Birth Sign wast have much powers to ruin game even more many think thats Birthsigns underpowered in game, there was only few Birthsigns thats have visible impact on gameplay with negative side effects but such side effects was done because Birthsigns have powerful advantages in skilled hands like Atronach Birthsigns.
So possibility to have traits was ruined by overprotection for players who cannot read description and cannot logically understood thats magic birthsigns not for warriors or certain birthsigns not for beginners, I sick from such overprotection in cost of features, there is many other ways to fix something besides of axing it, it the same if in Todays all surgical procedures were decided by amputation, when there is better way to heal patient, end even more absurdly overprotection, like you broke leg because jumping from height and your broken leg was amputated for protect you from jumping next time.

OH hell, this thread was derailed way too much already...

I said this argument a couple of times but...

Yes, birthsigns in Oblivion, Morrowind weren't big and game changing, in fact they were mostly useless. To fix that, they would have to make it big and game changing, problem with this however that this isn't something you should be choosing at the beginning.

As I said, when you enter the level 1-10 area (a level caped area) at level 7 it will probably be worse, espically because now all skills contribute towards leveling up. In Oblivion, a combat oriented character would not have to worry (unless they were trying to abuse the system by getting all +5s) about leveling up skills he was not going to be using (such as mrecantiile or speechcraft) because they would not cause his level to go up.

blarg

So instead of making feature useful and really have impact on gameplay devs decide axe it completely from game by strange reason, while there many ways to make traits work well?
Why exactly I cant chose such trait as birthsigns from the beginning?

Again, that's too bad IMO.

Major and Minor skill choices were intended to reflect the character's personal aptitudes...
(In the same way as some people have real difficulty learning math, but can still learn it; while others may find math easy, but have trouble learning a musical instrument ~but can still learn it with perseverance.
*and it can even be that way despite music being essentially just math).

A PC with a Major skill in acrobatics, is someone who excels in it; and someone who will master it faster than someone else [given the exact same training].
The loss of major & minor IMO is just another sandblasting of the RPG to remove the rough edges. This helps ease into new markets, but at the same time inherently removes much of the game's texture and depth.

The implementation was totally broken in my opinion though. It was more beneficial to level minor skills to get +5 attribute multipliers (I cannot express how much I hated that).

The skills your character excels at will affect their level more, so even if you level every skill to 25 for example, leveling one your character is good at from 75 to 90 will probably provide more experience than all of those first 25 points put together.

Oh sure, like there wasn't any other RPG that did this without any permanent classes...

Gothic, Deus Ex, Ultima...

I'd throw dispel under restoration. You could consider it restoring the user to its pre-magic condition. (Just seems like an easier fit in restoration tree, also gives restoration more love)