[Lewis Morel]

What is wrong with you people. I can't believe you even care that you have type in a password every time you open Steam. You have to do that when you open Facebook, eBay, and THIS FORUM, how is Steam anymore annoying then those things are. A lot of you also claim that some people would rather pirate a game then type in a CD key or a password. Well those people are insane. Why in the world would anyone want to send hours upon hours looking for a pirated copy of a game that actually works, comes with a key, and doesn't have viruses, instead of just typing a key once or entering a password every once in a while. The whole excuse doesn't make much sense either. It's like someone saying the only reason they shop lifted was because they didn't want to wait at the check out line. The inconvenience reason for pirating is just an excuse to justify bad behavior. The only real reason to pirate is money. Stealing is Stealing.

[Bek Rideout]

What is wrong with you people. I can't believe you even care that you have type in a password every time you open Steam. You have to do that when you open Facebook, eBay, and THIS FORUM, how is Steam anymore annoying then those things are. A lot of you also claim that some people would rather pirate a game then type in a CD key or a password. Well those people are insane. Why in the world would anyone want to send hours upon hours looking for a pirated copy of a game that actually works, comes with a key, and doesn't have viruses, instead of just typing a key once or entering a password every once in a while. The whole excuse doesn't make much sense either. It's like someone saying the only reason they shop lifted was because they didn't want to wait at the check out line. The inconvenience reason for pirating is just an excuse to justify bad behavior. The only real reason to pirate is money. Stealing is Stealing.

It doesn't take that long, 15 minutes at the most.

But yeah pirating is not so good. Support the developers people. If game is good you should buy it no matter how "inconvenient" it is.

[louise hamilton]

Steam Requirement is bad because users lose the rights to their games that they rightfully bought. Yes when you buy the game you are then agreeing without signing anything that you won't pirate the game and that is ok but I'm not going to allow a game that I've purchased to be owned by a 3rd party. If I buy it I own it and I should just be able to install the game to my computer and then play the game I don't understand why we can't do that. If people want to use Steam then good do it but don't force it on the people who don't want to use Steam and just want to play the game without having to worry about DRM's. I still haven't gotten New Vegas or Dragon Age 2 because of DRM's. I don't believe in them and saying that DRM's stop piracy is a joke. If Softworks make the decision that Skyrim will require Steam or another 3rd party, you will lose sales and I won't spend any money on the PC version I'll get the console version instead. Oh and what happens if Steam goes bankrupt, how will you be able to play the game. Is Steam going to unlock the game for you or will Softworks decide yeah we'll just use another 3rd party group.

Steam Requirement is bad and I don't understand how you can defend being required to use Steam.

[Mariaa EM.]

Steam Requirement is bad because users lose the rights to their games that they rightfully bought. Yes when you buy the game you are then agreeing without signing anything that you won't pirate the game and that is ok but I'm not going to allow a game that I've purchased to be owned by a 3rd party. If I buy it I own it and I should just be able to install the game to my computer and then play the game I don't understand why we can't do that. If people want to use Steam then good do it but don't force it on the people who don't want to use Steam and just want to play the game without having to worry about DRM's. I still haven't gotten New Vegas or Dragon Age 2 because of DRM's. I don't believe in them and saying that DRM's stop piracy is a joke. If Softworks make the decision that Skyrim will require Steam or another 3rd party, you will lose sales and I won't spend any money on the PC version I'll get the console version instead. Oh and what happens if Steam goes bankrupt, how will you be able to play the game. Is Steam going to unlock the game for you or will Softworks decide yeah we'll just use another 3rd party group.

Steam Requirement is bad and I don't understand how you can defend being required to use Steam.

I'm pretty sure the EULA is more than just anti piracy statement, but that you will use the software for its intended purpose and that is still the developers and you are only buying the right to play it.
Beth wont lose sales if people buy for the console instead. In fact TES is such a hit series that those who wont buy it, because of DRMs, would be such a small minority. You can only hold your pride for so long. You'll give in eventually.
Steam definitely wont go bankrupt, just a scare tactic by those opposed.

[Euan]

I'm pretty sure the EULA is more than just anti piracy statement, but that you will use the software for its intended purpose and that is still the developers and you are only buying the right to play it.Beth wont lose sales if people buy for the console instead. In fact TES is such a hit series that those who wont buy it, because of DRMs, would be such a small minority. You can only hold your pride for so long. You'll give in eventually.
Steam definitely wont go bankrupt, just a scare tactic by those opposed.

It's not a scare tactic who knows what's going to happen to the industry within the next couple years. Also the part that I bolded is the main problem with Steam. You don't truly own the game even though you paid 50-60 dollars for it. That right there is wrong and I won't be a slave to Steam if it's Steam Required. I bought the game I own it I shouldn't need a 3rd party in order to play the game.

[Donald Richards]

I don't know what your Sam's Club does but mine counts all items no matter if they are in a bag or not at the door. There isn't much difference. So how is DRM so invasive? Does it look at your pictures? Is it more intrusive than your browser?

Checking receipts at the door is common practice at Costco as well, and Fry's Electronics. Both stores actively look over your bag/cart and make sure you don't have stuff that's not on the receipt. Probably other places do this as well but those are the ones I can think of off hand.

What they don't do is show up at my house every 3rd day and ask to see those receipts again. They also don't post guards outside to make sure I'm not smuggling their stuff past them somehow. Steam however does behave this way and it's one reason a lof of us don't want a thing to do with it.

Also, from my experience in customer support, I can safely say that about 80% of all 'problems' people are having... are user errors.

I can also say from experience as a help desk grunt that the other 20% don't appreciate it when the help desk dismisses their complains as user error as well. Which happens all too often. If the managers I've worked for are any indication, they believe as you do that only 0.5% of all problems reported are genuine. We on the desk always knew better, that folks were just sick of being treated like morons and stopped calling in even if the problem they were having was especially irritating. People who hate Steam are more than likely the same way. Sick to death of being told the system works fine when clearly it doesn't for them, and so they don't post anymore trying to resolve it.

[meghan lock]

It's not a scare tactic who knows what's going to happen to the industry within the next couple years. Also the part that I bolded is the main problem with Steam. You don't truly own the game even though you paid 50-60 dollars for it. That right there is wrong and I won't be a slave to Steam if it's Steam Required. I bought the game I own it I shouldn't need a 3rd party in order to play the game.

WTF, That was my point for all games, DRM or no DRM, you only buy the right to play the game. The game is still property of the Devs not Steam, and definitely not the "End User".

[Undisclosed Desires]

WTF, That was my point for all games, DRM or no DRM, you only buy the right to play the game. The game is still property of the Devs not Steam, and definitely not the "End User".

Do you have to go on Xbox live in order to verify a game, I believe that answer is no. The only reason that PC gamers have to deal with this is because it's easier to pirate a PC game then say a console game. If piracy was stopped then we wouldn't need DRM's.

[Crystal Clear]

WTF, That was my point for all games, DRM or no DRM, you only buy the right to play the game. The game is still property of the Devs not Steam, and definitely not the "End User".

The difference is that if Bethesda goes under you can still play Oblivion.

If Steam goes under you will have to buy all new licenses for the games you have already purchased licenses for because you are not licensing the game at all, you are licensing access to Steam servers.

[carrie roche]

Do you have to go on Xbox live in order to verify a game, I believe that answer is no. The only reason that PC gamers have to deal with this is because it's easier to pirate a PC game then say a console game. If piracy was stopped then we wouldn't need DRM's.

There is not much to do with an xbox game other than play it. I suppose you could up the cut up the disc and use it as a shuriken.

The difference is that if Bethesda goes under you can still play Oblivion.

If Steam goes under you will have to buy all new licenses for the games you have already purchased licenses for because you are not licensing the game at all, you are licensing access to Steam servers.

Steam will got through a lot of changes, but I doubt it will go under, not in our lifetime.

It seems we have come full circle again. People are restating arguments.

[kat no x]

Do you have to go on Xbox live in order to verify a game, I believe that answer is no. The only reason that PC gamers have to deal with this is because it's easier to pirate a PC game then say a console game. If piracy was stopped then we wouldn't need DRM's.

Actually there's quite a lot of verification in a console, it's just silent - and some games require OS updates, which update the verification.
In any case, console piracy is really, really easy. The 360 requires a few dollars in equipment, but after that it's just burning discs.

In any case, DRM doesn't work. It's effective at killing the second hand market and nothing else.

[Kim Kay]

There is not much to do with an xbox game other than play it. I suppose you could up the cut up the disc and use it as a shuriken.


Steam will got through a lot of changes, but I doubt it will go under, not in our lifetime.

It seems we have come full circle again. People are restating arguments.

Which is why discussing Steam should be banned on these forums. It is just as bad as politics and religion as far as having stringent defenders of both sides goes (I know just thinking about Steam gets my blood boiling).

As for Steam going under, stranger things have happened. Someone could buy them out and choose to charge a monthly rate or terminate the service altogether. There are plenty of very possible scenarios where Steam ceases to function.

[FITTAS]

WTF, That was my point for all games, DRM or no DRM, you only buy the right to play the game. The game is still property of the Devs not Steam, and definitely not the "End User".

It's a strange kind of world that allows businesses to force you to adhere to a contract without letting you see it until after you buy the product.

[Ashley Clifft]

Which is why discussing Steam should be banned on these forums. It is just as bad as politics and religion as far as having stringent defenders of both sides goes (I know just thinking about Steam gets my blood boiling).

As for Steam going under, stranger things have happened. Someone could buy them out and choose to charge a monthly rate or terminate the service altogether. There are plenty of very possible scenarios where Steam ceases to function.

Wishful thinking.
Think logically and unbiased, Steam is the future for software distribution. Downloading games is much easier and convenient then going to the store.

[A Dardzz]

Which is why discussing Steam should be banned on these forums. It is just as bad as politics and religion as far as having stringent defenders of both sides goes (I know just thinking about Steam gets my blood boiling).

This makes sense. We all should stop this argument. I love Steam, some people hate Steam, we could argue forever, but it's not going to change the fact that I'm going to keep on buying form Steam and your going to keep on hating it. Also you people don't have worry about Skyrim requiring Steam, because they would have all ready announced it. Empire: Total War and New Vegas both required Steam and they both warned everyone before hand.

[kirsty williams]

Steam definitely wont go bankrupt, just a scare tactic by those opposed.

I am astounded by your naivete. Any company can go bankrupt, nothing is immune to legislative law changes, out of the blue tax hikes, class action lawsuits, technological revolution, shareholder greed, economic cycles or the vicious to and fro of capitalist evolution. There are no guarantees, especially in the software business whether it be writing or distributing it. I should know I worked as a programmer for years and have seen many companies both large and small, rise and fall over the last quarter century. If anything the booms and busts are faster now.

Ironically enough if Steam ever does go belly up or starts charging subscribers, it'll be all those pirated copies out there that the customer base will turn to in order to replace their now time-bombed DRMd games.

[Katey Meyer]

This makes sense. We all should stop this argument. I love Steam, some people hate Steam, we could argue forever, but it's not going to change the fact that I'm going to keep on buying form Steam and your going to keep on hating it. Also you people don't have worry about Skyrim requiring Steam, because they would have all ready announced it. Empire: Total War and New Vegas both required Steam and they both warned everyone before hand.

It's not like anyone is trying to to make Skyrim not have s steam version at all. Skyrim should & most likely will have one. it's just that Steam shouldn't be the only PC option. And there is still plenty of time for beth to say "oh by the way Skyrim is going to be another Steamworks title."

So Imho Steamwortks should be discussed or Bethesda will think that everyone is fine with it (sorry moderators)

[Nathan Hunter]

It's not like anyone is trying to to make Skyrim not have s steam version at all. Skyrim should & most likely will have one. it's just that Steam shouldn't be the only PC option. And there is still plenty of time for beth to say "oh by the way Skyrim is going to be another Steamworks title."

So Imho Steamwortks should be discussed or Bethesda will think that everyone is fine with it (sorry moderators)

I agree.

[emily grieve]

I am astounded by your naivete. Any company can go bankrupt, nothing is immune to legislative law changes, out of the blue tax hikes, class action lawsuits, technological revolution, shareholder greed, economic cycles or the vicious to and fro of capitalist evolution. There are no guarantees, especially in the software business whether it be writing or distributing it. I should know I worked as a programmer for years and have seen many companies both large and small, rise and fall over the last quarter century. If anything the booms and busts are faster now.

Ironically enough if Steam ever does go belly up or starts charging subscribers, it'll be all those pirated copies out there that the customer base will turn to in order to replace their now time-bombed DRMd games.

I think the internet does change a lot of the old ways of thinking. If Steam gets in trouble they can cut back on expenses without significantly affecting service (If nobody's buying, they don't need as many servers, or as much bandwidth), so running costs and income scale together, with the bare minimum for running a basic authentication server being very cheap. Also, by putting all the verification into a single point, turning to pirate clients to run all your old steam games is a single step operation, and something that will no doubt be very heavily documented if steam ever does go under.

[Brentleah Jeffs]

Which is why discussing Steam should be banned on these forums. It is just as bad as politics and religion as far as having stringent defenders of both sides goes (I know just thinking about Steam gets my blood boiling).

As for Steam going under, stranger things have happened. Someone could buy them out and choose to charge a monthly rate or terminate the service altogether. There are plenty of very possible scenarios where Steam ceases to function.

I think we should take into consideration that a lot of the posters here are kids and don't understand how the markets work, nor have even aremote insight on how corporations work. They see this "new" thing, perceive a benefit, and they think is great and don't see why not everyone likes it.

Just the notion that a company will take care of people who already paid if that company ever gets in trouble, that right there is just naive.
I

[carrie roche]

What they don't do is show up at my house every 3rd day and ask to see those receipts again. They also don't post guards outside to make sure I'm not smuggling their stuff past them somehow. Steam however does behave this way and it's one reason a lof of us don't want a thing to do with it.

Steam does not behave that way. Don't make stuff up. You only need to activate the game once with Steam and it's no hassle to do so on more than one computer. You can play Steam games offline. Are you confusing it with Ubisoft's horrible system? Or how about Securom which used to install itself as malware without letting the user know?

Which is why discussing Steam should be banned on these forums. It is just as bad as politics and religion as far as having stringent defenders of both sides goes (I know just thinking about Steam gets my blood boiling).

It absolutely should not be banned. I support Steam but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to talk about it. It reminds me of how there were stickies about Securom's malware behavior on the Spore GameFAQs forums and all of a sudden all discussion about Securom disappeared along with the warning stickies in addition to talk of legal home brew programs being banned site wide (both obvious incidents of GameFAQs bowing to orders from game companies). Sure they can ban speech all they want on their private site but it doesn't make it right.

[Nathan Maughan]

It still gets to me when I hear Steam described as the future, yes it is likely that digital distribution is quite likely to become the favoured model over the years to come, the advantages and disadvantages can be debated endlessly. Steam however is just one of these distribution platforms, I'd love to see services such as GOG, Impulse and Sprocket go from strength to strength, the more options we as consumers have the better deals we'll get, slavishly following Steam is just going to be counter productive to competitive pricing in the long run.

The sooner we get word on what the requirements and restrictions will be regarding Skyrims DRM will be the better.

[xx_Jess_xx]

Steam is coming to PS3. Purchasing Portal 2 will make it available on PC and MAC. (Linux and XBOX 360 next?)

Steam is the least invasive DRM. I came to this conclusion after using the service for one year. Yes, I had problems with Steam: client updating all the time, can't connect errors, unplayable games during updates, IE based browser inside Steam causing errors. Metro 2033 received an update which made the game unplayable for weeks.

The difference here, the devs are actually caring for us. Steam is a free service. New features are being added constantly. Almost every feature of Steam is optional, can be turned off/on. The idea is to offer quality service for free. I think people can recognize this value on their own if they give it a chance, or a second chance.

I can only say that in this one year period, Steam received many updates. Offline mode works correctly now, this was one of the most important updates last year. (If anyone have a way to break it, tell me so I can break it. After that I can report it as a bug so they can fix it. Under ideal conditions, offline mode is a feature not a lie.)

IE browser is gone, now it is using Webkit engine which powers Chrome.

Steamguard is a new feature which protects accounts from hijacking. YOU authorize which computers can access your account, so even they know about your account name and password, it doesn't matter. This feature uses Intel chips to identify computers. You can still use as many computers as you want. This is also optional. AMD may follow. As long as I and Steam lives, my games are mine. I can survive an earthquake and continue to have my games(200 of them).

Other DRMs don't have these kind of incentives. Machine limits, revoke tools, CD keys, disc checks, always online, everytime online, game breaking DRMs which may activate accidentally crippling a game feature and so on... Hardware based ones are likely to break in every opportunity they get. Their job is to stop you from playing. Online requirements come in ridiculous ways, they come with many restrictions. The thing is I don't trust them because they won't care about this one game after 6 months or 2 years. Steam has 30 million customers and over 1000 games including 90s titles, so I trust them not to fail this huge base. Or there will be consequences.

One legit concern, Steam becoming a monopoly. Maybe in the future then I will be in the anti-monopoly crowd with you. But I can't punish them for being a quality service right now. Other DD services might not in favor of modders(encrypted files) or developers(no DRM at all), but I personally welcome any other DD services. I won't stop from saying my favorite service is Steam. That doesn't make me a lesser/bad person, I hope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVIF10eL3hc

"The future of PC gaming is upon us. The question is who will lead and who will follow? Are you ready to change the world? We are."

PC gaming might need to evolve to overcome these dark times. I will take my side in favor of PC gaming.(Microsoft is like Anakin Skywalker, "You were supposed to bring balance to the PC gaming, not create XBOX exclusives." )

PS. As many pointed, Skyrim may not be a Steamworks title or even it is, it can have a separate non-Steam retail version. It can also be like Portal 2(wishful thinking). Steamworks is my guarantee to avoid draconian DRMs but Bethesda is different. Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, simple disc checks. I expect the same thing for Skyrim. Optional Steam version won't even have a disc to check then. :celebration: (I hate to deal with http://steamdrm.flibitijibibo.com/the-big-drm-list/ on Steam.).

PPS. http://www.shacknews.com/article/55017/the-fallout-3-pc-interview

[Juan Suarez]

Not liking Steam because it's a monopoly would make me a hypocrit, since I have no problem with Microsoft crushink competition like bugz.

[Marie Maillos]

I'm going to play Skyrim because I love Bethesda's work, and I'm not going to keep Steam on my computer because I hate it. If it's possible to buy a box in November, I'll be really happy to do it. If I can't pay for a box, well, fine, I'll play from Arena to Oblivion meanwhile for old times' sake and wait until I can play Skyrim without Steam. Not that huge of an issue.