Daggerfall fan...
"Back in my day I had to delete characters because they got lost in dungeons!"

Lets not go back to that. The major thing we should take from Daggerfall was how well the main quest line was put together.

If nobody liked Arena it wouldn't have spawned all those sequels.

Ah, but Bethesda DID go back to their Morrowind roots a bit with Fallout 3... Let me explain with this list of things that were in Morrowind, but somehow ended up in Fallout 3.

Morrowind things that Fallout 3 had:
- Better bartering system.
- Better levelling system.
- Preset faces.
- More unique dungeons, sometimes containing unique treasure.

So with these things, I am confident that Bethsda won't go back to the repetitive "are you sure you want to sell this?" Bartering system that made me shudder at the thought of selling my things, nor will they go back to the levelling system that Oblivion had (there's a poll on this forum and most people who have voted prefer the Morrowind system), nor will they go back to making every single face ugly and round, with no decent faces to choose from in the beginning. And I'm certain that they've scrapped the boring, generic dungeons and landscapes that plagued Oblivion.

Admit it, Daggerfall is what made gave the Elder Scroll series it's popularity.

The sectionalism in the fanbase is not exclusive to Elder Scrolls. This type of "old fan vs. new fan" dilemma is constant almost everywhere. For example, the rock band Kings of Leon (sorry for the very unrelated example, but its the first thing that comes to mind, and is relevant nevertheless.) is known in the music world for having a very heavy "old vs. new" conflict between their fans. Old fans enjoyed the band's grungy, southern feel and felt alienated when the Kings changed and became more mainstream, but their mainstream success is the main factor in their huge rise in fans and popularity.

This example is nearly identical to the Elder Scrolls problem. Morrowind fans enjoyed what made it unique, and were disheartened to see the next installment change. It is simply the natural flow of art production, and any other aspect of society that has a hardcoe fanbase; conflict is inevitable.

Very well said Origional Post.

I would like to think (Myself being a Oblivion first, Morrowind later ES fan) that a game like Oblivion, even though it brings to the table a lotta casual gamers, also inspires fans to get excited about the next level in depth. What bethesda should do is craft a game that allows for the casual gamer to pick up and get through with enjoyment, while allowing the hardcoe players the awesomeness of a complex system. Besicially, craft a came thats easy tolearn, impossible tomaster.

And besides, what Fallout 3 has taught us is this, Bethesda is not on a downward slope. They are making games that are getting better and better in so many ways, from quest complexity to large world uniqueness. (fallout 3 is big, but more comparable to morrowind in its explorability.) Graphics and combat are a given, really skyrim could be an amazing game without being the hardcoriest experience ever. It dosen't need to be morrowind hardcoe, where lvl 1 means stay in Balmora and wait till the rats stop killing you, it needs to be skyrim hardcoe, where lvl 1 means go ahead and kill the rats, but watch out, cause the glaciers outside Winterhold are full of bears, and those things will tear you apart till your a higher level.

I actually disagree OP. While I do believe the intent of any game developer is to definitely appeal to a larger audience, I do not believe the end product of Oblivion was what Bethesda intended. I say this for a variety of reasons. For one, Oblivion had been in development since Morrowind, and Todd Howard stated back then that he wanted Oblivion to be on the next generation consoles. So that became the driving force behind the game. The only problem is the next generation consoles didn't exist yet. So three or so years of development ended in Bethesda more or less guessing how Oblivion would work. In total, Bethesda only had 6 months of actual development time on the hardware when they finally got it, and the game was probably delayed from a Holiday 2005 release because they were still learning the new technology. Just think about how much actual content was cut from Oblivion due to having to get the game shipped and not being familiar or having the time to work with the new hardware (there were various ideas put up by the devs on the elder scrolls website while Oblivion was in development and never panned out). I think that this in itself reflects greatly why Oblivion turned out the way it did, feeling empty and incomplete.

While making the game more focused and appealing to a larger audience was probably also a push, I do not believe that was the driving force. What truly makes TES special is the fact that is it unique, different, complex, and a truly immersive world. I also firmly believe that Skyrim's development process will be the polar opposite of Oblivion's. For one, Skyrim isn't being made for a new generation of consoles, and it can still run on the existing ones. Bethesda has also made a new internal engine for the purpose of making their types of games, and it has probably been in development as far back as when Oblivion was released. We already know that Skyrim has been in development for quite a few years (which means this engine has been up for some time), and voice overs are starting to be recorded for the game now. Which also suggests that a major portion of the game is already done, so I'm expecting a much more fulfilling, complete, and polished experience than what we got with Oblivion. Does that mean this game will be Morrowind? Absolutely not. Morrowind has already been done, and it's time for TES to move forward. However in terms of feeling complete and like a fully-immersed world, it will probably feel more similar to Morrowind than Oblivion.

I could argue Bethesda went back to their ACTUAL (Morrowind was far from Bethesda's roots; notice the "III") roots with Oblivion. I can draw many parallels between Arena/Daggerfall and Oblivion, things Morrowind lacked. Let's start with the setting, the fast-travel systems, the return of almost all of Daggerfall's Daedric summonings, the enchantment privelages being unique to the Mages' Guild, a similar magic skill system (increased skill = less magicka cost and there isn't really spell failure like Morrowind in Daggerfall), horses, separate dungeon music, larger dungeons, more randomization, buyable houses, similar pacing, etc.

Morrowind fans weren't the first Elder Scrolls games and Oblivion definitely wasn't the first Elder Scrolls game to be different from its predecessor, or the first to be criticized by fans of its predecessor. It is very conceivable that Bethesda may make another game more similar to the first two than Morrowind.

Don't mean to cut off your paragraphs. I think Oblivion did a great job in showing the larger audience about what TES is all about. Marketing, Business, & Appeal is the ways to draw people in. I mean hell, I would have never known what TES was without http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Y8stzGHSE.

This is actually how I got introduced into TES as well lol. Of course I do remember renting the game from block buster, but either way I did see this segment of Toonami. The good old days when Cartoon Network used to be worth watching...

I don't disagree with you by the way, I just don't think the issue with Oblivion is as simplistic as the OP is suggesting. I do believe spreading one's audience is a factor. But Oblivion had some really difficult obstacles to overcome, and even still it is a great game.

Yeah, That commercial made me think about buying the game. Saw it in a blockbuster, didn't know what to play, brought it and I mean wow, memories. That really did put the TES name out there. Still worth watching tho (not as much) except Toonami is gone...RIP 1997-2008.

EDIT to your new edit

I agree with you too. I that Oblivion was a good step to a refreshment to the new era. Now that Oblivion's is years behind and with Bethesda's record of games after that, not only are they still able to capture a new audience, they can now satisfy the old audience while embracing the new ones. I think Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood is a prime example.

Excellent thread. Great argument by the author. Have you noticed that nearly every poll is shifted more towards Morrowind than Oblivion? For some reason, people seem to think just because something is older, it's better. This is evident with classic rock and black and white movies. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's classic. When Morrowind first came out, tons of fans complained about it being too different from previous elder scrolls games like Daggerfall. Now, people do the same thing with Olbivion. No matter how Skyrim turns out, people will complain that Morrowind was better or Oblivion was better. It's a cliche argument however it is indeed, inevitable.

Because seems have gotten lazier lately. Though as far as music goes I do prefer a more modern type of music. (Hardstyle ftw, electronica at it's best!)

Level scaling and difficulty in doing so defenently needs to be increased.

More variety would be greatly appreciated.

More skills to choose from and to work towards goals.

Remove Un-Killable NPC's from game. (Maybe flag them if toggled in options)

What I hated the most in Morrowind was lack of mountains with ridges, sheer cliffs, etc.

What Skyrim will be is an Elder Scrolls game. Every Elder Scrolls game has been vastly different from the previous one. I think Morrowind and Oblivion are the most similar, actually.

Back before Morrowind came out, everyone was afraid it was being "dumbed down" because it was coming out for the Xbox. It didn't matter to me then, and it doesn't matter to me now. The mechanics are totally irrelevant to me. What's important is the world.

I've lived and breathed Elder Scrolls for nearly two decades. I remember the first preview for Arena in Computer Gaming World. I loved Arena, loved the races, loved the world. I remember complaining about level scaling on Bethesda's BBS with Arena. But that didn't dminish my enthusiasm. I was obsessed with Daggerfall before it came out, visited Bethesda's awesome fantasy village website every day, sent e-mail suggestions in, Drove 60 miles to pick it up the day it came out. Loved it, hated the bugs. Didn't mind that 2/3's of what they talked about the game being before it came out was not there, loved what was. Plus, devoured all the books. Was a message board regular for Morrowind, before it came out. Loved the world, loved the uniqueness of the setting, was totally immersed. Didn't like the more structured(limiting) magic system, but that did not diminish my enthusiasm. With Oblivion, I couldn't spend as much time involved in the forums, as I had recently married, and had young children. But still, was obsessed. read the posts, got the previews, bought the Xbox collector's edition before I had an Xbox 360. Once I got a 360 and played it, once again, I loved coming back to this world. Didn't like the more generic setting, hated the bland look of the elve's and beasts, but that didn't diminish my enthusiasm. I love this world.

The game is just the lens for my latest journey into the Elder Scrolls world. The interface, mere mechanics defining my interaction. They change every time, and the changes are both good and bad. But always, they are allowing me access to Tamriel. Always, I am enjoying another fantastic journey. Now I am getting ready again. I can close my eyes and feel the cold, crisp air of Skyrim. I am preparing to return. I'll welcome another chance to experience this land. I'm not an Oblivion fan, nor a Morrowind fan, not Daggerfall, Arena, Redguard or Battlespire. I'm a fan of the Elder Scrolls, and I will always find joy in getting another chance to visit.

Where are the rest of you hiding?

Honestly, though, that is... unique. There are few actual Elder Scrolls fans that I've ever seen, and I can't even pick up a bias on you, at all, which is impressive. You truly are unique among us, good sir/madam.

That's not a fact at all. First: Morrowind can be beat on a speed run in about 15 minutes if you just drink a million potions and run straight to the end boss. Search youtube. Oblivion required far more questing to get to the end.

Second: Morrowind's combat was way easier than Oblivion's. In Morrowind, there were about fifty different ways you could become literally invincible by just doing things that were built into the game and didn't particularly seem like they should make you invincible. For example: Levitation - invincible. Chameleon? Invincible. Drinking several potions at once? Invincible. Permanent enchantments? Invincible. Similarly, there were a number of ways to create ultra-mega instant death spells or enchantments. None of those were possible in Oblivion.

Third: Oblivion at least had some slightly interesting and skill-based mechanics for things. Like combat, with power attacks, ranged aiming, spell switching, etc. In Morrowind, you just walked through the dungeon in your invinco-armor flailing your mouse back and forth and mowing everything down with your death blade. Oblivion had the lockpicking minigame. Morrowind let you have a level 100 open lock spell like five minutes into the game. Oblivion had a reputation system and guards that tracked stealing and murder, even though it was kind of buggy and didn't work. Morrowind's version let you steal and murder constantly and you'd almost have to go out of your way to try to get caught.

I really don't remember ANYTHING in Morrowind that was hard except figuring out how to load mods in the correct order before Wyre Bash came around.

All that said though, as an earlier poster replied, how hard a game is to beat has almost nothing to do with whether or not people will call it "dumbed down". There are plenty of games with ridiculously steep difficulty curves that are still called "dumbed down" by their "fans" because they're sequels or because they're on one console in addition to another console or in addition to the PC.

And just to be clear on my negativity above... I still thought Morrowind was an AWESOME game, and I played it forever. However, I definitely didn't play it for a "challenge". I played it because it was fun exploring and questing and modding and whatnot.

Morrowind was poorly balanced, but it was still challenging up to level 10-15 or sth. The game has never been made for character above level 20 and it was evident - I think it was one of its failures. BTW Vivec was supposed to be almost invincible, yet he wasn't even that hard to beat. However, in Oblivion the difficulty was ALWAYS the same. The game wasn't really more challenging at level 3 than at level 30. The difficulty level was constant and sense of accomplishment was non-existent.

Thank you guys. Regardless of whether you might agree with me or not, everyone's been very open to debate and discussion - something that, honestly, is rarer than it should be. If we can maintain that, I think we may have a very productive thread on our hands.


I think this is a point that gets confused very frequently in these sorts of discussions. Much of what made Morrowind a better game wasn't necessarily a "design decision" of the game - things like more dungeon variety, a more balanced leveling system, and seamless city/wilderness connections are things I think we would all agree are preferable to their Oblivion counterparts. What seems to happen is those traits become inherently associated with Morrowind, even though they aren't necessarily what makes Morrowind different. They're more like technical limitations, mistakes - things that would've been better if there was more time or money spent. The true "differences" between the two games, the things that are worth arguing about, are the actual design decisions made by the developers. Things like compass markers or fast traveling. These are things that were possible in both instances, but - whether it's due to design preference or perceived necessity - only existed in one.

So, in the same vein, we should all agree on the things that make Morrowind better in a technical sense. The things we should really be focusing on discussing are the things that were different on purpose - those are what give a game its individuality, more than anything else.


This, in my opinion, is key to pleasing everyone. Lots and lots of options. Most notably, there should be a (customizable?) "hardcoe mode" a la New Vegas that implements many of the options that make the game more immersive, but more difficult. Removing quest markers, disabling fast travel (assuming it exists), etc - making the game more realistic but more challenging. I think this would definitely please many of the people complaining about the "simplification" of the Elder Scrolls series so far. Even I, an absolute fan of Oblivion, would kill for a fantastic hardcoe Mode in Skyrim. I'd play and replay through the game so many times if that were implemented.


Thanks for noticing. I don't think we should be focusing on hoping that Skyrim is most like My Favorite Game A or Your Favorite Game B - it limits its potential. I think we should be exploring our options in much more depth. Bethesda certainly did, I can assure you.


Many people on this forum ignore Fallout 3 - they see it as "not Elder Scrolls", so obviously it doesn't impact the development of Skyrim. Which is completely false. Anyone who played Fallout 3 knows how much in common it had with Oblivion, and that means many of the design decisions and improvements they made for Fallout 3 are completely relevant. Things like the bartering system, leveling, dungeon placement and layout, and quest structure all can be discussed on a generic enough level to apply to both universes - as the above quote demonstrates. I can guarantee you that they've brought over many of the applicable improvements they made to Fallout 3 and New Vegas for Skyrim.


Well, it's dumb. In games in particular, it's more possible to please everyone than any other medium. When music finally discovers options menus, audience sizes are going to explode.


I have to agree. A few minor issues aside, Oblivion's world is the most immersive I've ever experienced. I think they did more right with Oblivion than they did wrong, that's for sure.


It was obviously what they intended to some extent, or it would not have been released. Bethesda doesn't regret Oblivion by any stretch - the things they regret are the things they they had to rush, the things they couldn't get into the game in time for release. I think that's very different than "the entire game was wrong because they just didn't have enough time". There was a specific direction they were heading with Oblivion - given time, I think they would have polished the leveling system, animations, and radiant AI, but the core direction of the game was decided very early on. Oblivion was different than Morrowind for more reasons than just the technical. Whether Skyrim feels the same way, we'll have to see, but I would assume they are more comfortable with release schedules now than they were for Oblivion - especially since they don't have the increasing pressure of new hardware to support.


Regardless of why, I sincerely hope we find a way to grow out of that argument. That argument is an oversimplification of reality, and it doesn't generate any useful discourse. If the goal is to actually talk about features we'd like to see in Skyrim, you have to drill down and discuss those features specifically. You have to talk about why they worked (or didn't), why they're still relevant (or not), and why it matters for Skyrim specifically. Otherwise we're just having a "battle of the fans", and nobody really wins those.


This is simply amazing. I hope a Bethesda dev comes across your words - it's exactly what I'd want to hear if I was in their shoes.

Anybody read Scar Tissue? It's an autobiography by the lead singer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Like all bands, they started out playing clubs and bars and so forth, but within several years, they became a best selling band, at one point arguably the most popular in America. During the shooting of a music video, Anthony, the author, decided to kiss the bassist, who was one of his best friends, right on the lips. The producer said "Anthony, this might alienate some people." And he replied,

"Eff it. Maybe it's time to thin the herd. Get rid of some of the homophobic jocks in the fanbase." Sure enough, they got a lot of hate mail from people who were fans of the music but not what it stood for. They lost some sales, sure. But they knew the people who stuck around were worth making good music for, who they'd want at their concerts.

My point is, Bethesda reached out to a larger crowd with Oblivion. Maybe it's time to thin the herd. The new fans who really appreciate the series will deal with a harder, more mature game, at least as well as older fans can deal with further changes in the opposite direction.

The big problems with Oblivion are:

Level Scaling
Lack of the Jungle
Less Skills
Less weapon types
Less weapon/armour materials
Seemingly small world
A Lack of culture/diversity

Have I ever met anyone who says otherwise? No. Everyone dislikes these things. Some people simply choose to ignore them. The things people debate about include voice acting, fast travel, and general things like these. These are some of the smaller, yet important aspects of the game. We deserve to be able to voice our opinions. We are the people who have bought Elder Scrolls games. Bethesda should actually be catering towards the Daggerfall fans, considering they are the ones who really put TES on the map. A lot of the "Oblivion bashing" is often an attempt to come up with a middle ground, anyway. And it also happens the other way, too. I've seen it many times. Morrowind fans bash Oblivion, just as Oblivion fans bash Morrowind.

All I see about the op, anyway is:

"Stop voicing your opinions, and listen to me. Oblivion is the best game, and we're getting Oblivion 2."

Also, I don't hate any of the Oblivion fans. Seti here, for example, debates a lot with me about Oblivion and Morrowind's faults. I think we're cool.


Also. Oblivion was dumbed down. Don't bother. Morrowind was dumbed down form Daggerfall, too. I enjoy Morrowind most, and I can say this. It's just an obvious flaw of the games.

An intelligent, well-thought-out post. A rarity in this cesspit of bias and blind conjecture. The Elder Scrolls will evolve, whether we want it to or not. I'm on board, but I'm afraid this call for moderation will fall on deaf ears.

The fact is, there's no swaying a TES fan from blindly supporting the game that introduced them to the series and its lore.