What to study first? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:49 am

I really want to learn the lore but I don't know what to study first.Do I study things I am intrested in or do I study a certain era or subject first?

Thanks in advance.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:12 pm

My suggestion: read the PGEs (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-and-its-environs-first-edition and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-and-its-environs-third-edition edition) first to get a basic background of everything. Then study what interests you. Or take a look over at the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:58 pm

My suggestion: read the PGEs (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-and-its-environs-first-edition and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-and-its-environs-third-edition edition) first to get a basic background of everything. Then study what interests you. Or take a look over at the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/.

I read the lore buff guide but never read the PGEs and I guess there isnt a 2nd edition like other book series in TES there are gaps?

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:59 pm

There is, but it's Temple Zero work, rather than Bethesda-published, and anything but introductory reading.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:07 pm

There is, but it's Temple Zero work, rather than Bethesda-published, and anything but introductory reading.

So let me us this as a test for all this lore-speak.

Would that be "monkey truth"?

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:27 pm

Would that be "monkey truth"?

It is a truth. From monkeys. For monkeys.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:32 am

It is a truth. From monkeys. For monkeys.

So that means I was right?

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:27 am

So that means I was right?

Yes.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:50 am

Yes.

Thanks

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:22 am

Would that be "monkey truth"?

In this case, yes. If we're discussing what is or isn't monkeytruth, I reckon it's worth quoting from Temple Zero:

What is monkey truth?

'Monkey truth' is a particular aesthetic which recognizes the world's inherently fictional nature. Though the 'lore' has often been treated as if it were the record of some actually existing universe being recorded by these texts and images, a 'monkey truth' creation will above all attempt to present a world which is profoundly beautiful and magical. In such an aesthetic, internal consistency takes a backseat to marvel, which is far more important.

A monkey truth creation therefore is one which is successful in achieving the sense of an alien and exotic universe, avoiding standard fantasy genre conventions to achieve an overall sense of alterity, while still containing a successful narrative.

The term itself is at least a decade old, though it became a commonplace descriptor after writer and game developer Michael Kirkbride applied it to al Bede's "Orc Creation Myth". It has been summarized to mean "a story so good it should have been included in the game."

And my own thoughts: "Monkey Truth" is in this community often a stamp of high approval. It is probably a little presumptuous to label one's own work as monkeytruth, but there are plenty of clever people round here who pull it off all the time. Monkeytruth should be firmly grounded in TES lore, but is usually set on expanding or elaborating upon that which already exists, and so doesn't always need to be rigidly accurate (though it often is). Most importantly of all, monkey truth should reward a reader with an eager mind. It should be fun to read, and sometimes interesting to puzzle over (but not awkwardly puzzling). I think the Editorial Initiative have a thing on what monkeytruth is.

It is a truth. From monkeys. For monkeys.

You could also put it that way.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:33 am

I think the Editorial Initiative have a thing on what monkeytruth is.

We do.

Anything written by a fan of the Elder Scrolls is termed 'fan fiction,' but only those fan fictions aimed specifically at expanding the lore and creating a living world are included within the term 'Apocrypha,' and only those Apocryphal texts which successfully "[achieve] the sense of an alien and exotic universe, avoiding standard fantasy genre conventions to achieve an overall sense of alterity, while still containing a successful narrative," do we call Monkey Truth.

Personally, I think T0's definition emphasizes alterity most; that's what makes something monkeytruth. The whole 'so good it should have been included in the game' doesn't really cut it down to monkeytruth. We don't all agree on that, though, so you'll have to interpret for yourself.

As far as where to start - start with what you like! Just stroll on over to http://www.imperial-library.info/, read whatever takes your fancy, and remember to base what you think about Tamriel on primary documents, not on what starry-browed lore-lords say.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:33 pm

As far as where to start - start with what you like! Just stroll on over to http://www.imperial-library.info/, read whatever takes your fancy, and remember to base what you think about Tamriel on primary documents, not on what starry-browed lore-lords say.

So its like studying real history and looking at primary and secondary sources?

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:26 pm

So its like studying real history and looking at primary and secondary sources?

You'll do well here.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:10 am

You'll do well here.

Does knowing how to study real life history help?

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:00 am

Does knowing how to study real life history help?

Most definitely.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:10 am

Most definitely.

Good I shall begin!..........tommorow its kind of late now.

Main reason I want to get into lore is because I love real life history and love debating and speculating and these fourms seem to contain all 3 of those things and also won't hurt to have a bit of knowledge when TES:O comes out!

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:41 am

When I do feel like studying(not now too tired) I might write an essay on it and post it.

How about that?

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:43 pm

When I do feel like studying(not now too tired) I might write an essay on it and post it.

How about that?

That would be interesting reading. I will look forward to it as long as you stick to the Lore and not add a bunch of Moneytruth

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:04 am

That would be interesting reading. I will look forward to it as long as you stick to the Lore and not add a bunch of Moneytruth :tongue:

I'll try and cross-refrence to find out what is the Truth and the truth of monkeys!

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:16 pm

If I can suggest some study material, it's probably a good idea to read The Monomyth and other works that give the general story of Creation. Basic books like Aedra and Daedra are also good reads, because they involve the beings that took part in Creation (as well as those that didn't). The PGEs do a great job of explaining Tamriel's history on a province-by-province basis, but since they're history they don't delve too far into the philosophical workings of the world. Those same philosophical workings are often the root cause of most of Tamriel's troubles and conflicts, so it's always a good idea to have an understanding of the basics in that regard.

That said, don't think that there's any one way to go. I learned the history aspects before I ever paid attention to the Creation myths, so when I finally got my head around those myths the history that I'd already learned took on a new and even more interesting light.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Personally I would start with UESP and then move to the Imperial Library. http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Main_Page

Imperial Library has a lot of texts in it that are great reading but aren't entirely "official." UESP only has in-game texts. UESP is also easier to search (especially with the new search function.)

Just stay away from the summary pages and make sure you read the sources themselves. Often the summary pages included claims that aren't backed up in the lore and (worse) can sometimes contradict the lore.

Once you've got a good handle on the in-game stuff, then you can check out some of MK's obscure texts at the Imperial Library. But if you start with the Imperial Library it might be harder to keep the two separate in your head.

And for the love of god, stay away from the wiki.

» Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:26 am

Personally I would start with UESP and then move to the Imperial Library. http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Main_Page

Imperial Library has a lot of texts in it that are great reading but aren't entirely "official." UESP only has in-game texts. UESP is also easier to search (especially with the new search function.)

Just stay away from the summary pages and make sure you read the sources themselves. Often the summary pages included claims that aren't backed up in the lore and (worse) can sometimes contradict the lore.

Once you've got a good handle on the in-game stuff, then you can check out some of MK's obscure texts at the Imperial Library. But if you start with the Imperial Library it might be harder to keep the two separate in your head.

And for the love of god, stay away from the wiki.

Don't worry I hate the wiki UESP is much better.

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:20 pm

Don't worry I hate the wiki UESP is much better.

Good, otherwise you would be kicked out

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:52 pm

Do what they say, I tried looking something up on the wiki once, so those people got to my home an hung me by my ankles until I deleted it from my browser history.
Serious business around here...

But yeah, basically, start with the easy stuff, with less contradictions, like stuff about the provinces or the different kingdoms, and anything the games themselves can tell you. After you get a good basis of who belongs where and what elementary forces rule Nirn, you can start plummeting down the time-consuming abyss of Tamrielic Metaphysics... Have Fun!

» Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:13 pm

But "who belongs where" is one of the most contradictory aspects of Tamriel! Nords: "Morrowind belongs to us!" Dwemer: "Dwemeris belongs to us!" Imperials: "We're taking this now." Chimer/Dunmer: "Get out, n'wah!"

In all seriousness, though, Lorgar's right. As long as you stick with the broad strokes when it comes to major historical events, you'll find little to no contradiction in terms of the timeline. The only issues come when you start looking at individual accounts of those major events, when no one can agree on who was present at this event, and who killed who in that one, etc. It's the same kind of stuff that happens in real life, sadly.