So, the Eight Divines do exist. They are the Aedra (or at least some of the Aedra). But what/who exactly is Talos? I know that he/it was Emperor Tiber Septim, but was later worshipped as the Ninth Divine Talos. Is Talos actually a Divine, or is he/it just an idea that the worshippers of the Nine Divines believe to be a Divine?

Talos is a divine, he's a god, but he's not an aedra. He came to being at the end of DF when Zurin Arctus got his soul back. If I remember correctly, he's three being into one; Tiber Septim, Wulfhart, and Zurin Arctus.

Have you read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml?

So, in relation to the structure of the universe (the universe being a wheel, and the spokes and spaces between being the Aedra and Daedra, respectively), Talos doesn't play a role then? Or is my universe description off?

Talos is taking the place of Lorkhan (Nirn. It may not be a Daedric plane, as Mancar believed, but it is as much his plane as the Jupiter is Akatosh's) Since you can't completly kill a god, Lorkhan always is being mantled by something to keep him active. The most recent is that of Talos. As the people of Tmreil believe that Talos is Lorkhan, He is (Aedra are based on people)

Makes you wonder why he was okay with the Nerevarine destroying his heart, and giving him that lucky coin and everything.

Cause that was freeing Lorkhan.

The Big Man is coming back, and he is going to reap a bloody toll from the damned Mer that have polluted the fair face of Nirn.

He's still a 'dead god' so I doubt he could just come back like that.

Not quite. He was separated from his Heart but this isn't lethal.

I kinda agree with this theory. I heard somewhere that the moons have been beginning to disappear since the destruction of red tower. If Lorkhan's body is re-forming, what will happen? He obviusly can walk on Nirn, since he has done so in the past and does so constantly as Wulf, as Zurin arctus, as Pelinal, etc.

His body, i.e. the moons, have been rotting since creation.

He occasionally forgets he's supposed to be dead.

Exactly, it's just a flesh wound. Like something so paltry as having his heart ripped out is gonna keep him down for long.

Actually, is Tiber Septim the most recent? On the chance that Pelinal was the Shezzarine, and by mantling Pelinal (and being told by Talos you are Pelinal reborn) doesn't that also sort of make the CoC a Shezzarine? And on that chain of logic, since he also mantled Sheogorath, that means Shor may well have gone totally bonkers!

Very true. However, Seogorath is supposed to be one of Lorkhan's lesser creations, right? so he mantles himself and part of himself, which does kinda make sense.

I'm afraid it doesn't. The et'Ada are the strongest concepts that lesser concepts such as mortals seek to imitate and by imitation become them in every way. Suggesting they mantle themselves is nonsensical.

For the birth of Sheogorath you're using a description that implies way too much.

Currently we know that the creation of Mundus did not only transform the Aedra, but also the Daedra. A primary example can be found in the Aldudagga where Mehrunes Dagon once was a Leaper Demon. Other then that, Census of Daedra Lords suggests that Hermaus Mora was made of discarded ideas.

For Sheogorath specifically there is the entry in Faith in the Empire: Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.

As such it can be said that Sheogorath was born simultaneously with Lorkhans demise, however nothing is said about a physical relation. Sheogorath wasn't born out of Lorkhans deterius or consciously made by him as your description implies. Personally I reckon that during the convention, when Lorkhan lost his heart and Mundus was stabalized and given a special divinity, that the concept of madness -Mundus is a mad-ball of mixed schizophrenia- came into existence and became embodied by Sheogorath.

It's hard to tie the Shivering Isles into this all. Jygs exposition of being cursed by the Daedra doesn't make sense in this context. You can assume it to be false, but I reckon someone goofed up. (No, you don't have to post your explanation that makes it fit).



No need for the sarcasm. Remember Anaxes? Trapped, not killed. You know why.



You can't really make those assumptions about the player character. You don't know what he did. If she even bothered with the Oblivion crisis. Nevermind that his completion of all guilds and every other quest, is a bit of an unrealistic achievement for a single woman. Chalk it up to gameplay that you can.



I didn't see this linked yet. http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/shezzardivines.shtml, been around before Knights of the Nine. It explains that there have been Nine Divines before. It's significant in combination with the Arcturian Heresy. The god Talos that Tiber became by manteling Ysmir, Shors | Shezarrs avatar was already part of it. Talos is not so much a new Divine as the guise of an old one picked by a new actor.

If I came off as sarcastic I apologise. I was actually being serious. For a non-physical being it actually would only partly matter if it mattered at all to have a part of their avatar removed, as opposed to what Umbra did to Clavacus Vile.

About the gameplay to story segregation, that may be true, but could it be reasonably said that, at roughly the same time as the Oblivion Crisis, Umaril the Unfeathered attempted to make a comeback and was stopped by a human who did more or less what Pelinal did, much how the nerevarine did more or less what Nerevar did? Discounting the Sheogorath idea, wouldn't that mean that Tiber Septim was not the most recent Shezzarine avatar?

As for Sheogorath, I remember when SI was still the newest TES-related thing, and the forum came to the conclusion that while Jyggalag may believe himself cursed by the other Princes, it was actually the unpredictability of the new world that drove him mad?

Who else but Pelinal was the Divine Crusader? It's an identity trap.



When using that approach, it's typically also possible to explain why other sources are wrong. For Jyg, we're just assuming he is because then it makes sense, but at the same time it goes against his ending speech, pretty much against plot exposition with no clear indication that he was indeed wrong. This makes me think it's fundamentally broken.

I'm not talking about Pelinal the Divine Crusader, I'm talking about Pelinal the maybe-Shazzarine, and the Divine Crusader who came during/after the Oblivion Crisis who is called Pelinal Reborn by someone who may be a definitely-Shezzarine.



Well the problem is the various Mr. Exposition(s) reliability as narrators. It is the Isles after all, therefore everything there is a little twisted, and none of them are necessarily omniscient, even beings who believe they are. The idea of the inherent unpredictability of Mundus driving Jyggalag mad by breaking his very fundamental aspect makes sense in the broader context of TES mythic cycles. The other Daedra uniting to curse him doesn't fit the general tone and feel of the preexisting lore.

Wait, so when you mantle Seo you make Jygs l not insane anymore?

Until unpredictability and free will break the crap out of his mind again.

Who else but Pelinal was the Divine Crusader?



However, with no indication that he was indeed wrong there is no point in arguing with Mr. Exposition because he is Mr. Exposition. That it doesn't fit the broader context is exactly the reason why a mistake should be assumed. Sure you can reason it away, but such argument should always be prefaced with the comment that the original story doesn't fit. Anything else would be self deception.

Gameplay, the player character in KotN. Story wise, whoever took up the responsibility of kicking Umaril's ass both body and soul until he ceased existing. None of this "Mantling is the same person" stuff. They are part the same person, but I doubt that Nerevar was any other race and background than a Dunmer warrior-king, where the Nerevarine was both Nerevar and something else.


When Mr. Exposition is shown to be unreliable (as is the very nature of SI and much of TES in general) it is the duty of a reader to pick apart what he says and find something more solid. Therefore we would be outright unjust in our treatment of SI to not argue with Mr. Exposition, be he Sheogorath, Haskill, Jyggalag or Dyus.