We love the simple and eligant counting the hits/use to decide your leveling. That is a solid concept. BUT after Skyrim we got a lot more RPG's that basically took off from there to give us Great RPG's like Dragon's Dogma, Witcher 3. Also Arkham games have become more open world.

So now coming Back to the topic of Combat.

Arkham Games are most cool in Hand to Hand combat, Hit Combo's, gadgets.

Dragon's Dogma , we get Epic Bosses battles.

Shadow of Mordor had great combo's again built upon the Arkham mechanic.


Now When ever We Get TES VI, it (Expected) has to be something that can redefine all the above. im really excited to speculated on what Lord Todd's Team will come up with.

(off topic) I am having an hunch that all the backlashes in fallout 4 were probably part of the grand plan to research what might work. Mostly because its Bethesda's next game after Skyrim. I mean they know what they had done rit by now..!!!! few things i think they experimented in fallout 4 might be:

1. Building from random items in game world. (Next can be destructive world, interact with even particles in the world)

2. Voiced protagonist (obviously tried something inspired form Witcher series)

3. Dialogue system

4. Endings

First off, I think this be better placed in Beyond Skyrim. If it remains general enough, it may stand on its own though...


Frankly, I haven't really played any games recently that compete with TES in terms of combat. Kingdom Come will, but games like the Arkham series and Assassin's Creed operate on a fundamentally different basis.


That being, they are designed for 3rd person. Their style of combat is absolutely not functional in first person, because it's control and timing requires a degree of area awareness that you just can't achieve.


TES remains a first person game at its core (and should, IMO) and thus can't use a similar system. Which is good, I think, because I actually find that style of combat boring and automatic. You press a button, and the game does everything for you. The worse example of this automation was Ryse, but it exists in all the games that use a similar system.


Unfortunately, First Person controls aren't great in 3rd person either. The ability to target specific body parts is tricky in 3rd person, which limits the ability to do so in first. A potential option would be to make the 1st and 3rd person less interchangeable and have different controls. It that would basically be making 2 different games, since the 2 different modes would require rather significantly different AI behaviour.


Looking more at games like Condemned: Criminal Origins, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and Chivalry would be a better approach, I think.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1601828-official-beyond-skyrim-tes-vi-79/

Please use the existing thread.

first, i just want to point out, the games you cited are very different types of games than TES.. its sort of like saying "hey, Mario should use Zelda's fight mechanics"..



and second,

Which is why I thought we may be able to morph this into a more general discussion about Combat than about specific ideas for it in TES6...


But I suppose the mods will make the ultimate call.

Yeah, you really cannot compare them. They are waaay different.

I personally like the TES method of combat the best since it is not that much based on player skill.

Some would say it's based too much on Player Skill...

I've heard a lot about combat in these forums, there are a lot of different opinions. One thing that always trips me up are these comments

What exactly does this mean? Lach previously posted this:

but you also seem to imply that the Elder Scrolls series is becoming increasingly too reliant on "player-skill." Correct me if I misunderstand but don't those two points contradict one another? The more a combat system relies on character progression the more the player hits a button and "the game does everything for you." Right? I am just curious what the ideal balance between player control and character progression would be for you all?

Oh, they definitely do. I don't personally think they have become too Player-Skill oriented, but there are some who do.

I personally think that the ratio between Player Skill and Character Skill has remained mostly constant, just shifting in its expression, over the games.

I could never get into 3rd Person Perspective combat games, because the combat moves were primarily like something out of a bad cartoon show, not something that would be practical in a fight. I somehow can't picture my Imperial Archaeologist doing gymnastic flips or spinning moves while fending off a rat with a stick or dagger. I play TES in 1st Person Perspective about 95%-98% of the time, only resorting to 3PP in situations where I need to see the terrain at the character's feet in order to navigate over and around obstacles, or to view how a new piece of gear looks on the character. Fighting in that mode doesn't work for me. "Combo moves" are only really valid in a 3PP type of game, so making the game reliant on them would be a game-breaker for me.

The combat in Morrowind was too reliant on an "all or nothing" design philosophy, rather than varying degrees of success or failure. Constant flat-out missing at low level with poor weapon skills (or trying to use a weapon you had no proficiency with) was frustrating, because: (A) it didn't show WHY you missed or did no damage, and ( B ) never resulted in doing less or trivial damage, only full rated damage for the strength of the swing (depending on how long you "charged" the attack) or absolutely nothing. It felt very direct and responsive, and damage was smoothly variable by how long your charged up the attack before release, but the poorly utilized 3 different attacks could have been so much more if there had been substantial differences in hit chance versus damage potential between them, as in Daggerfall.

Unfortunately, to me, Oblivion's attacks felt very much like "press the button and wait for the animation to play out". Combat was more "block, then counter-attack" until the opponent (or your character) ran out of hitpoints. The "power attack" by holding the button down was a step backwards from variable attack strength in Morrowind. It LOOKED a lot more involved and spectacular than Morrowind's combat, but functionally was no better, or worse.

Never played Skyrim, so I can't say whether it made combat more or less player-skill oriented than OB.

I actually enjoyed Mount & Blade's combat, which made both character and player skill important. Both speed and power were dependent on character skill, so a better "twitch" player was still "playing the character", rather than having the character perform way better than their skills would suggest. A higher skilled player could get a bit more out of a character, but a weak character was still going to get ripped apart by the more skillful high-tier opponents.

I agree, with a minor caveat below. But yeah, I agree that TES combat's simplicity is one of its draws. I like the combat just fine (with a few tweaks from my favorite mod) and wouldn't want it to become a full on dark souls type of game.

It is, but mods like Requiem can address that issue pretty easily, so it's no biggie to me anymore.

TES Combat is meh at best. It lacks parry and dodge mechanics. All weapons attack the same for the others in their skill with a generic swings. You're level 80 warrior fights exactly the same as your lvl 1 did. Magic while made a more active form of combat was so gutted and basic it was boring as heck especially destruction where it was the same 5 spells just changed for the element.

• They need to give you more active melee combat choices such as dodge/rolls, parry/riposte, ability to block while dual-wielding or using magic/sword.


• Melee weapons should be more unique. Have unique attack types/animations depending on the weapon type, you should swing your mace different than you're swinging your sword. Weapon's should have a unique speed and reach based on the weapons stats itself and not it's generic type. Weapon type effectiveness should damage armor differently such as a sword not being very good against heavy armors while a mace is. Skyrim does this somewhat with perks but I think it needs to be an inherent thing built into a damage system similar to Warframes.


• Melee combat should evolve as you play the game whether it involves learning 'talents' through a perk system similar to Skyrims Sprint jump attack or my personal preference a trainer based 'stance' system where you can learn different fighting styles for each weapon type (1h sword, 1h mace, 2h sword, 2h mace, spear, etc...) and just equip the one you want on your character sheet or in menu somewhere.


• Magic combat and the way with works with melee combat should operate more fluidly. Free up the shoulder buttons and allow the player to assign spells to them like in Oblivion. This would allow more interesting interactions between the two such playing a 2H Paladin that can still cast healing spells or sun spells. Use something like The Witcher 3's Quick Select Wheel that allowed you to select spells mid combat with completely stopping combat. This also has a lot to do with Skyrim's boring copy/paste spells and a lack of unique spells. Being able to also have a way to quick use a selected item such as a potion, poison, or bomb as-well. Imagine entering combat being able to hit a button and drink a "Increase melee damage" potion, cast a spell that throws a fiery chain at the enemy that pulls them to you, then hitting them with a power attack from your sword.

i think what TES is missing the most are more contextual combat animations which is why characters move so robotic in bethesda games during combat, coz they move as if they are lacking fluidity. not to mention TES cloth dynamics doesn't really look like cloth, compared to other games. (i wanna see cool looking capes and other clothing accessories)

anyways, bethesda really needs to address these issues since even though some of their other features are highly advanced, when it comes to character animations and cloth/hair dynamics, they already look quite outdated.

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as for FPS dodge/rolling mechanics, mirror's edge have shown that dodge rolling while on FPS is doable. but i think there should be a cooldown for dodge rolls so players can't just spam it. (ie : the heavier you are, the longer the cooldown should be for rolls) this would distinguish light armored thief-like characters who are high on agility, and more prone to using dodge rolls for backstab, compared to heavy armored soldiers who would likely rely more on stagger (if they got heavy 2h weapons) or blocking (if they focused more on shields) or parrying/riposte (if they got light weaponry or dual-wielding)

dodge roll spamming in dark souls is bad, mostly coz it looks silly. which is probably why some people hate it so much coz it makes you look like a tumbleweed.

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i also like the idea of being able to change attack animation sets of weapons simply by swapping between attack stances. this would enhance combat so much, and make it more tactical. stuff like being able to hold a weapon with one or both hands, or being able to stow away your shield behind your back, etc.. those are really cool stuff that i think would fit well in TES.

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another combat mechanic i'd like to see in TES are grapples and throws. (mirror's edge is a good example that shows that feature could also be done in FPS and not just third person)

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i would also like to see parkour TES. (assassin's creed is good reference for 3rd person, mirror's edge is good reference for 1st person) both is doable. but i think parkour requires a maximum amount of weight as well as agility requirements.

does it need to be done exactly like AC or ME? nope, not really. but being able to scale some walls and minor obstacles in TES would be good for finding alternate routes and for assassin and thief roleplaying. compared to heavily armored people who might opt for a direct route, etc..

currently, getting around obstacles in TES usually involves clumsy jumps that makes people look like idiots.

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as for magic, i wish they would bring back spell customization. although they need to rebalance it for compatibilities and to avoid the creation of broken exploitative magic.

I liked morrowind's combat. if only there was a message that stated when/how you missed which gave some feedback would it likely not have been an issue regarding the dice rolls. likewise when an opponent missed your character.

the jump from morrowind to oblivion was jarring.

If it ever comes down to pressing button combinations in the right sequence at the right time to trigger "combos", then it's completely ceased to be a RPG, and has sunk to becoming nothing more than another mindless hack and slash game. Don't get me wrong, hack and slash games have a market, but when everyone is trying to grab a slice of the same market, instead of being the dominant player in another market that's gotten them where they are, I see it as a huge mistake and an affront to the customers who bought their previous products.

I had issues with Morrowind's combat system, not because you missed, but because you either hit with 100% effectiveness or missed completely. There was never anything in between (weak hits, glancing blows, etc.), and skill had NO bearing on how much damage was dealt if you did hit. The variable damage was strictly controlled by how long you charged up the attack before releasing the button, which was good, but only one aspect of what should have been a complex calculation. The attacks in Oblivion, which always dealt exactly the same damage with that weapon for a given skill level, were even worse.

I agree that strides must ever be taken forward in gameplay, but using Witcher/Shadow of Mordor/Arkham 's fighting system isn't the way to go.

I also find this system too automatic, and either WAY to easy to succeed, or use cheap tactics against you to increase challenge. it works if you are controlling Geralt, or batman, or the Ranger, but in a game where it's supposed to be YOU, and allow control that works when fighting, racing across the land or place books in shelves or decorate tables it does not.

I think they need to keep improving on what they have. allow your hits to interact with targets (or be interacted with) in more ways than "apply damage" or "recoil". I'd like to see a return of chop, left slash, right slash, stab attacks combined with either keyboard or mouse movement. and have each of these affect targets differently. maybe add parrying by "chopping" to the left of a target using a right slash to intercept the sword, or slashing over a target chopping down to parry that. bad timing would have your sword hit/intercept nothing, and be hit by the incoming attack.

I don't doubt in the next instalment they will add more ways to use player skill and keep interactability with the world, HOW is the question.

The fundamental fallacy of RPG combat is that skill = more hits and/or damage. The DIFFERENCE in skill between the fighters is what determines how and how effectively combat will be fought.

Put two novices together and you get an even match where they both stand off a bit until one or the other thinks he or she has an opening and makes a clumsy attack against a clumsy defense, or else they both clumsily charge together. Result is a fairly random outcome depending on who made less errors or just got lucky. Put two veterans together and you get a standoff of subtle shifting and maneuvering until someone sees an opening and exploits it, as the opponent utilizes their own skills to deflect or evade it, and nobody gets hurt until one makes a mistake. Put a novice and a veteran together and the veteran simply steps forward and massacres the novice, and there's not a whole lot that the novice can do about it. The dynamics are very different from case to case.

In TES games, combat plays out pretty much the same way regardless of whether your character is a total novice or a seasoned veteran, and the opponents' choices of moves are usually not done in reaction to your own style or skill.

The more I think of neat ways to make combat more engaging, and challenging, the more i notice thinking "if i'd face an enemy with that much skill in a TES skill, i'd just summon an flame atronach and fireball the bastard"

if one method of combat gets too tough to perform well, the others need an increase as well. somehow, I don't think Bethesda is into making the games less accessible by making combat hard to get into. Is there even a good way to make combat more fun, but not harder to do?

really depends.. "fun" is a relative term, it means different things to different people..



I for one always found dice-roll combat fun, as I enjoyed the micromanaging of gear and skills.. others however hate such mechanics..

I think a large part of the problem stems from the fact that most of 'Skill' comes from knowledge, which can't really be limited to the Character without overly automating combat. Which has a much more limited appeal.


Being skillfull isn't necessarily about doing something better, but rather about knowing what to do in specific circumstances, and having the reactionary ability to do so (muscle memory is a big part of this). A skilled combatant isn't necessarily stronger or faster, but knows how to react to their opponents movements and being able to control the flow of interaction to maximise their own capabilities while minimising their enemies.


But automating this is a problem too, because it has trouble dealing with the specifics and Nuance of every engagement. Taking most games that use an over-automated style of combat, such as Neverwinter Nights (I'm not going to pick on Morrowind, though it has some of the same issues) as an example, the automation of actions like Block and Dodge seems like a great idea. The more skilled you are, the more likely you are to be able to get out of the way, or intercept attacks. But part of that skill is recognizing when you WANT to take a hit, to give yourself an advantage, as well as HOW to take a hit to minimise the disadvantage. In an automated system, there's no real room for that kind of Nuance and control.


Because of this issue, I think that trying to represent prue Character Skill is a wasted effort. In fact, I'd rather not call it Player Skill or Character Skill at all. Rather, you have to rely on the Players Knowledge of the Characters Abilities.


I've played many games with combat I've enjoyed. But I wouldn't say any of them were good.


Part of the reason behind this, I think, is the limitation on actions, and generally poor Armour mechanics. There are plenty of games that have good actions and interactions, but none that really cover across the board. As Keylocke says, Mirrors Edge shows a range of melee grapples and tackles which are totally absent from other First Person games, Daggerfall (and to an extent Dead Island) allow for far better control of attack types, Dark Messiah and Condemned allow for kicking and shoves... But no game really allows you to do all of them. There's definately a control-limit influence to this, and an AO issue, bit games in general seem to set themselves up in a niche and limit their range of actions for no real reason.


So really, this isn't just a problem with Bethesda, it's an industry problem. The basics behind the 3 combat systems we use (First Person, Thrid Person and Dice Roll) haven't changed in close to 20 years. So I think that really the only competition has come from who can make the same tired systems prettiest...

dice rolls in combat somewhat reminds me of assassin's creed combo system, coz the chances of your attack's success is based on your equipment stats + timing + RNG. so even if a player does the same attack with the same timing on the same opponent, the RNG acts as a diceroll which decides whether your attack hits or gets blocked or countered, etc.

so i'm one of those people who doesn't really like dice rolls in real time combat. coz players are forced to keep repeating the same actions over and over until RNG finally let's them hit successfully.

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however, the thing that i like most in assassin's creed combat (and similar games) was the contextual animations. and i'd like to put emphasis on the word "animation". NOT the combat automation. (coz combat automation was blech)

contextual animations is about posing the character body in such a way that their attacks does not look robotic. it's like if you stagger an enemy, the enemy would actually show a contextually correct stagger animation based on the location of impact, instead of just showing a generic "hit" animation and then getting thrown backwards by physics.

same thing when you attack with a slash or a thrust or whatever, the body should move in accordance with the inertia of the motion, the legs and feet should be placed in the right positions to portray the right balance and counter-balance of each motion. etc..

this is the part where arkham, AC, witcher, etc.. does their animations so much better than TES.

not to mention the cloth and hair physics of the characters as they perform those animations look so cool.

(i think bethesda should actually watch martial arts sparring matches. newbies move stiff and robotic while the veterans move with more fluidity and makes it easier to determine the weight and the force of impact by motion alone)

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but when it comes to the actual combat controls, emphasis on the word "controls". i think combat systems like mount&blade, dark messiah, chivalry, etc.. seem to be more appropriate for TES (with some minor tweaks) coz it gives the players so much more control in their attack patterns compared to preset combos.

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so what i'm hoping to see is if TES can combine those smooth contextual animations with that level of versatility of combat controls.

While I really enjoy the combat in games such as Assassin's Creed and Shadow of Mordor because of the quick action and visual spectacle they are, if the Elder Scrolls were to imitate these models it wouldn't feel right. I agree that the best combat systems to look at are games like dark Messiah and Mount and Blade but even they should not be imitated. Bethesda needs to pick and choose what they believe would fit best into the feel and desired outcome of their game and then continually build upon those mechanics.

I don't want a lock on system and I don't want combo attacks but I would like to see some extra player-activated moves. Give me a dodge and parry and allow for quicker access to the slew of spells and potions we have at our disposal in quick, intuitive combat menus similar to the Witcher. One thing I would like to point out in games like Shadow of Mordor is the spectacular progression that game gives me. In Skyrim I start out and feel fairly strong and able to take on anything I want at the get go. Upping the difficulty only really gives enemies more hit-points and makes them hit harder but it doesn't change the way I approach a fight. In Shadow of Mordor I remember starting out and getting my butt handed to me. That first area was so tough until I started to understand the tools at my disposal. As I began leveling up I really felt a progression, going from a weak, almost handicapped pc to a feeling almost invincible was awesome and it was because of the leveling system that gave you new tools to use against enemies. I would love to see Elder Scrolls introduce some kind of ability progression. As I level give me the option to unlock dodge or parry or blade stances or blunt weapon stances that dramatically effect my ability and my options as a player. As of now I just don't feel like the perk system ever really opens up as you progress. The changes are often so small I hardly notice. Please in the future balance perk progression and equipment progression. Leveling up my blade made me a little stronger but picking up a stronger blade made me a god. It just felt wrong.

One thing I think we can all agree on though is that we need some extra love in the animation department. Elder Scrolls characters have always been stiff and hard to look at as the waddle over to you from deep within the uncanny valley. Make them seem more fluid and realistic and that alone will provide a significant improvement to the feel of combat. Really, if this was all they did I would be happy, of course i would be overjoyed if they did more.

"Leveling up my blade made me a little stronger but picking up a stronger blade made me a god." That in a nutshell is at least half the problem. A good weapon in the hands of a novice is all but wasted, and the weapon will soon end up in more competent hands, one way or another. A poor weapon in the hands of a master is still lethal, and the master will make short work of that novice with the expensive toy. Weapon stats should have some effect on combat (ideally more as a percentage modifier, not a flat bonus), but the character's abilities should be more important.

Maybe adding a delay after attacks that calculates {weapon weight + weapon tier - weapon skill} would work as a start. the lower the skill, the more delay after attacks before you can do anything, including block or move fast. "overqualified" chars would find a speed bonus. and enchanted or poisoned lower tier weapon might be viable later to apply effects faster?

An unqualified character would still have a huge tell to his attack, and open himself up after every strike. That way, we can still have the old "Ebony shield in Dren plantation" situation, but using it would be very hard.

maybe for shields, allow players to grab a blocking shielded opponent, but block resistance (which starts at 100%) quickly decreases after the start of blocking. heavier shield have this number decrease faster, and maybe start at less than 100%, and basic shields can delay this drop or slow it down in capable hands.