What is the deal with daggers? : V

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:28 am

I created a thief and daggers are appealing but it doesn't seem very useful when you can use swords. Has anyone tried out the whole sneaking perks for daggers and how good is that really?

How exactly can you sneak up to an enemy when they are in a group and use the 15x damage perk for daggers in stealth when you don't have the shadow warrior perk?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:08 am

Takes a whlie, but when you have high sneak skills, and have taken the backstab perk, you can get 15x damage on sneak attacks, which can be doubled with certain gloves. 30x damage is impressive. Then dual-wield.
You can take ALOT down with one hit. If you can get the drop on a dragon (literally in some cases) you can one hit them. or two hit a dragon priest.

Sneaking can be hard in well lit areas and with plenty of opponents around, but that is part of the challenge. You have to adapt your gameplay. Use the silent roll perk to get to shadowy areas, use invisibility potions and muffled boots. Try and distract enemies and pick them off one at a time. It is a very rewarding style of play, I find.

Edit: I have yet to get shadow warrior perk, but I look forward to getting it. You can still escape to a shady area and hide. Sometimes the enemy will lose you.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:41 am

You can one hit kill almost anything with the x15 perk and a certain set of enchanted gloves that bring it up to x30. Don't expect to be able to sneak-kill everything though. Do it when you can, but use a bow or sword when you can't.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:14 am

Yeah, many dungeons are insanely easy with the x30 bonus and good sneak skill. Enemies don't detect backstabs as easily as arrow kills, so you can backstab everyone in even crowded rooms. Or do a trick where you pop around their front and quickly forward stab, whose death animation is usually decapitation.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:57 am

Yeah, many dungeons are insanely easy with the x30 bonus and good sneak skill. Enemies don't detect backstabs as easily as arrow kills, so you can backstab everyone in even crowded rooms. Or do a trick where you pop around their front and quickly forward stab, whose death animation is usually decapitation.

Does decapitation perk work when sneaking?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:14 am

I've put more then 100 hours into the game already as a warrior and I have yet to find some good daggers in a dungeon, it seems that most quests where you get epic unique weapons give swords at best.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:50 am

I've put more then 100 hours into the game already as a warrior and I have yet to find some good daggers in a dungeon, it seems that most quests where you get epic unique weapons give swords at best.

Even basic daggers can be effective with 30x damage, especially if you smith them to upgrade. True, most weapon rewards are swords. But there are some good daggers. I am currently using Mehrune's Razor and an enchanted exquisite elven dagger (paralyse for 2 seconds). I think I worked out that I am doing about 1200 damage with a sneak hit from both my daggers, and I only have about 40 1h skill.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:42 pm

I created a thief and daggers are appealing but it doesn't seem very useful when you can use swords. Has anyone tried out the whole sneaking perks for daggers and how good is that really?

How exactly can you sneak up to an enemy when they are in a group and use the 15x damage perk for daggers in stealth when you don't have the shadow warrior perk?

I'm having no trouble at all, i should just let you figure this out yourself! But i'm a mean guy...so i'll spoil it for you

Spoiler

It's really easy to be honest no matter the difficulty you play on, Novice - Master.

What you need to do is :

Low level :
Get your sneak up to so you have the skill BS (3x dmg), now you want to use daggers. (Daggers are the only melee weapon you can use for a silent kill).
Now when you're low level and you have 3-5 mobs, you can easily kill mobs that are few steps or inches behind their friends without being detected. Remember to use SHIFT (Default) to "walk" sneak, this is for low level only.
As you progress with sneaking you'll eventually be able to "run" sneak, or even walk normally behind them.
If you can't get a good clean kill on a group of mobs, use your bow, DON'T attack them.
Aim for a wall away from you, pref that it hits a wall that makes the enemies turn their back on you, sneak up and whack whomever you can, go back and rinse and repeat.

Higher levels :
I'm not even gonna explain this...

Not to be an A-hole or anything on the higher level explanation but i don't want to spoil the fun for you

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:12 am

If you ignore the +One-Handed Weapon Damage enchants then once your smithing is reasonably high daggers are better than swords. They swing faster and the damage difference is minor.

Suppose 91 smithing (obviously you can push it higher)
Daedric Dagger = 12 + 10 = 22
Daedric Sword = 15 + 10 = 25

Add in +100% damage from One Hand perks
Dagger = 44
Sword = 50

At this point Daggers do more dps (as far as I can tell) because they swing significantly faster.

Include sneak attack
Dagger = 44 x 15 = 660
Sword = 50 x 6 = 300

Now if you bring +One Hand Damage enchants in to it. Using 4 enchants of +40% each (can get 47% technically, with +enchant potions):

Dagger = 44 x 15 = 600
Sword = 50 x 160% = 130 x 6 = 780

Now swords win for sneak damage and regular damage. If you use the gloves that give double sneak damage it effects both the same so nothing really changes. Personally I still prefer daggers because I like to use my enchant slots for other stuff and make a more balanced character (read: jack of all trades, not a god at one thing).

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:42 am

Though a sword would give you away in sneak mode ^^ (If you attack that is)

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:25 am

Won't the one-handed enchants increase base dagger damage? They are governed by 1h skill...

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:11 pm

dagger is way better unless you abuse the crafting system. but by that time you'll be like what lv 60+
ruins all the fun anyways.

dagger out perform swords anyday with sneak.

dual weild power attack can land 3(maybe even 4 if the enemy is dumb to turn around...or hes dead already by 2 hits) POWER hits. so thats what 270x your normal dagger damage.
1 hit kills anything in the game.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Does a successful sneak assassination with daggers level sneak, one-handed or both?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:45 pm

Does decapitation perk work when sneaking?

Don't know if the perk is required, but I have decapitated many a foe while sneaking, so long as I quickly pop around the front. I have the perk so probably.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:33 pm

Does a successful sneak assassination with daggers level sneak, one-handed or both?

Both I believe. I have seem both my 1h and sneak level after a sneak kill. Could be the sneak was leveling for an unrelated reason, but I don't think so.

@Kemchinikemkem - interesting. I shall have to test this out. I had not taken the perk because it said standing power attacks had a chance to decapitate, so I assumed stealth kills did not count. Time to go level up!

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:33 am

dagger is way better unless you abuse the crafting system. but by that time you'll be like what lv 60+
ruins all the fun anyways.

dagger out perform swords anyday with sneak.

dual weild power attack can land 3(maybe even 4 if the enemy is dumb to turn around...or hes dead already by 2 hits) POWER hits. so thats what 270x your normal dagger damage.
1 hit kills anything in the game.

Yeah, at Lvl 100 Sneak with the 15x Sneak Damage on Daggers, i was able to 1-2 shot a Giant with dual Iron Daggers using dual Power attack on him from right behind him. Had a 1H skill of about 53.