Some of them were kinda successful though. Like vault 101, 19, 34(jk.).

There was no success or failure, all the Enclave did was come up with some ideas and sat back and watched.

Them evil sons of Bit***.

fixed

lol ill let it slide.

i would rather go with the Fallout Bible as it was written and/or directly influenced by the devs that created the Enclave.

But I will humor you. if the Enclave were actually tring to make it to the moon or another planet, the vaults i should think would fall under the realm of practical experimentation and not social experimentation. Which, they are not referred to as,. This would mean that yet again, the Enclave change the known lore of the fallout universe. the vaults purported use changes ,once again.
And thats cool, but if i have to hear about how Beth ruined the franchise with plotline that doesn't add up or was never intended, i will make sure that everyone realizes that the vault experiments/ Enclave do the same.

Now, if they did consider the planet un-survivable, having the vaults makes even less sense, as:
1)It would mean they went into it with the expectation that there would be no data to glean from the vault experiments, as they would all be destroyed.
(if they weren't destroyed and the inhabitants survive at all, it would mean that the world is STILL HABITABLE) So, either way.. what would be the point?
If the vaults survive, then that means you dont need to go to the moon and any data is sueless ans its un-needed.. if they fail ourright as a result of the planet being nuked then theres nothing you can gain from them. So the vaults would be utterly useless in any capacity.

2) (and this is the point i already made) the time and resources that went into making the vaults that would fail as part of social.. i mean practical.. i mean useless eperiments would be better put to use in creating redundancy/contingency measures to ensure the enclave could get off of the planet. Rather than hiding out on an oil rig. no need to worry about how salt water corrosion, oceanic weather or any of that would effect a manned rocket take off, no sir. Its only the last of the human race at stake.


I know someone will say "but they're an evil shadowy governement and thats why they did it"

And all that logic is going to do with me is refer me back to the fallout bible where MCA points out they are pretty stupid. Which makes me ask again, how could they even cary this out, especially undetedcted?

nope. no plotholes with the vaults being experiments and the enclave existing, here.

The bibles and VB are sourced from the same man - Mr Chris Avalone (the bibles were released iirc to help keep the fanbase active and visible when the project got into trouble)

Putting more cash into the enclaves survival is great, but where is the money coming from? GNN are going to notice the "top sekret lair" entry in the budget - you need a project to hide the money in, the bigger the better. Massive civil engineering project involving lots of costly underground work - great - easy to inflate and maintain credibility (well the geologists didn't tell us the earth was going to be like that, so we had to do all this extra work)

An uninhabitable planet doesn't mean there is no data from the vault. Uninhabitable can mean cannot support thing like food production, a massive nuclear winter providing no sunlight, a change in the earths atmosphere meaning it can't support human life (the vault is sealed with air recyclers) or the annihilation of the ozone layer (uv light is deadly). A vault tek vault is ready against all of these possibilities - accept no imitation!

The experiments aren't useless. They take known unknowns and try to make them knowns. Should we all be awake or in suspended animation? Should the sixes be 50:50. What is decades of cabin fever going to look like? Do we need to suspend the fifth amendment? How should we resolve differences onboard? Should we send advlts, or just children?

The oil rig, if properly maintained, has no problem with long term survival.

Sorry, should have worded that better.. , In reference to the Enclave, that was Tim Cain who created them, this is who am referring to with the "and/or",, MCA just points out that he didn't know why they were created and that they were also nto very smart. Also, VB wasn't just MCA, but also JE. I am not certain who created the space plot part for the Enclave in VB, but since MCA says in the FB that he didnt really know about the enclaves conception and JE was new-i cant really give either f them any "this was the original enclave plan" credit....... as i said it would be changing the Enclave's and Vaults' backstories.

While I agree that the facade of the vaults would keep things looking on the up and up on the surface, they would need to be functional as advertised and with complete equipment manifests for that logic to hold any value. You must also bear in mind that the resource wars were ending and the world fuel supplies were depleted. It's hard to imagine when the bandwith of the nation was stretched to its ends that extra time and resources would go to this many vaults, while Enclave actions were being carried out undetected in the BG. If resources are so scarce, it would be noticed if money, resources and manpower were re-allocated. This is a huge plothole, even using your logic.

I mean, you mention GNN as being a watchdog, but where is this public scrutiny when the manifests showed double the occupancy in vault 27? surely there would be record of this. Vault-tec's deals with the Enclave are purported to be hush hush, but you would have documentation of who was mailed as being "accepted" into the vault population. You would have IQ testing and future job placement documentation for each of those inhabitants, how many children they were bringing and the like, Because the resources were scrarce, there would be oversight that would catch all of this. Why would the Enclave take such risks with thier facade?
And if people were keeping an eye on what was happening with the contruction of the vaults (and i am sure they wwould have to be since resources were scarce), how is it not noticed that Vault 13 doesn't have a full compliment of equipment? it was completed for 8 years. are you telling me that it was never audited? Surely it must have been, GNN and the world are watching, remember?
Likewise would not all instructions given to overseers be on record, prior to the vaults closing? Multiply these issues to all all of the other vaults that weren't as advertised. Funny cause, if you were putting up an elaboratemulti hundred billion dollar facade to keep the public's nose out of your shadow government's business, which was secretly funded by said facade, you would try to make that facade as reaslistic as possible. What you most certainly would not do is make them faill in amusing ways just for lulz or experimentation and you certainly would not give any indications that those were your plans, or cause for any type of oversite to investigate.

Istill say "no" to this logic.. If you are collecting data from these vaults, it means they are in tact. If they are in tact then you dont' really need to go to another planet, do you? Whats the purpose of that? There will be more radiation in space and presumably on the moon or whatever other planet that youre trying to go tothat doesn't have an atmosphere .. Compound that by the fact that no one has lived on another celestial body long term, launced in a rocket that has weathered 200 years of salt air atmosphere..... How is that be the best plan for survival of the human race?

I would be more worried with more practical things like "will our rocket to another planet even work, since we have been floating in the briney salty ocean for hundreds of years?"
What you mention abive is all experimentation that should have been carried out long before, with actual control scenarios for each of those subsets of variables, if they were to provide any actual scientific data.

Thats the ting though. How do you properly maintain it? I know some have said electroylsis will keep metal from rusting longer. but it still rusts. I have been stationed on air craft carriers.
they are mainained by being dry docked every so often., I simply refuse to believe that an oil rig is going to be self sustaining for that period of time gven waters solvent qualities and satls oxidation properties..

If the resoning for having the oil rig is that the rest of the world was decimated, where do you get new, non-irradiated metals to replace those that have given way to oxidation?
If people can be sustained indefinately without importing anything into their society to sustain it, then wouldn't war have been overted to begin with? seems like ther would be nothing to fight over if an entire society could get everyting they needed from a oil rig fior an indefinate amount of time..

Heres a better idea. Using those resources FOR the enclave. If the vaults are supposed to stand up (so "experiments" can be done), it would be much easier to instead use shadow governemnt clout tto insert the enclave its self into the vaults where they would be safe.

this is much easier than the atlernative of creating not only the vaults for a fecade and revenue stream and maintaining their experiment identity as secret, but also building an indefinately sustatinable metal oil rig in the middle of the aalty ocean on the chances that if the world wasn't surviable, their rocket may possibly work after 200 years of corrosion and they could possibly make it to antother planet which is less habitable than the earth.

too many "ifs" there

Indeed, the vault project is inplausable and unfeasable stated as canon

How would they find out? Vault tec is a private corporation, if the press doesn't know theres a story, they can't report on it. Even if they did know, its could be classified by the government as a state secret, given 1950's sensabilities would help squash it, not to mention the vaults are high security locations.

What risk? The vaults, although under the control of the Enclave are still somewhat at arms length. Most vault tec employees have no idea what the enclave conspiracy is, including those doing all the testing.

Just as the Press doesn't know everything that boeing and BAE do, they don't know what vault tec do. The press being able to read a public document like the government budget is different to a private audit of a private company that the government is going to declare classified.

No. The instructions often only became known in sealing, probably in an encrypted file.

All of which are easy to keep secret with compartmentalisation of functions and military classifications.

No. The vaults are not the surface. They are an environmentally sealed "Vaults" underground - a vault remaining in tact and habitable until its food expires is a different kettle of fish from the surface being long term viable.

The fact that the practical matters are not discussed does not mean they are not dealt with (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) and rust is a relatively simple problem to solve. It would have been great to be able to do all that experimentation before hand, however the enclave conspiracy didn't exactly have a century before the bombs were projected to fall to do all of that.

The Enclave had at least 70 years on us, potentially decades of metalurgial improvements to find a non oxidising alloy, tougher plastics, and other potential construction materials.

just to clarify, vault 101 was an experiment. It was to test the role of the overseer and if a small gene pool of families could survive a long time. Someone mentioned a vault with white noise, that was Vault 92 which tested noise as a way of hypnosis.

Where does it say it was test the small families thing? From what I can see it was the same experiment as Vault 13 but insted of being closed for 200 years like Vault 13 was, it was meant to be closed forever. Everything that supposedly could be tested in Vault 101 could also be tested in Vault 13. The only difference is the 200 years vs forever.

Vault 101 also stole the ending to Fallout which was

(Styles, you got one point of vault 101 right, how it was suppose to remain closed forever, but you forgot the other point, allow me to elaborate:

Background

Vault 101 was actually part of an unscrupulous social experiment. All of the other Vaults were intended to be opened at one point or another when the “all clear” signal was sent from Vault-Tec or the appropriate regulatory agency, and this indeed, did transpire, with almost universally horrific results. But Vault 101’s secret plans were different: The doors were never scheduled to open. Ever. In fact, the Vault was supplied with just the type of equipment it would need to keep functioning indefinitely—like spare parts for the water processor. But this was just the beginning:

The true experiment was even more devious and cunning. Although Vault 101 was about testing the human condition when a Vault never opened, this was only the first part of the plan. The “actual” experiment went far beyond that, and a select few knew the true nature; that this was to test the role of the Overseer. While the Overseer was able to interact (and even visit) the outside world via radio transmissions, and a secret tunnel from his sealed office, the rest of the inhabitants faced a much more dismal future: As far as they knew, Vault 101 was never sent an “all clear” signal, and faked radio transmissions described a nuclear-ravaged world gone mad, with absolutely no hope of existence outside of a Vault. The radio transmissions were actually recorded before the bombs even fell, and in many cases described a world even more horrible than the reality of the nuclear wasteland. The Vault 101 Overseer, like his counterparts in the other Vaults, was actually a planted Vault-Tec operative whose job it was to control the experiment from the inside.

Aside from keeping up this ruse, the Overseer’s other important role was to reinforce to the dwellers of Vault 101 that the outside world would never be habitable again, and that their only salvation was in the Vault. The Overseer prevented anyone from leaving the Vault, and made sure the Vault dwellers received their regular “transmission” from the outside world. People entered Vault 101 in 2077, just before the bombs fell.

The Overseer died of natural causes 50 years later (in 2127), at the age of 84, after grooming a subordinate to continue the clandestine plan. The new Overseer led his people according to the same isolationist doctrine preached by his predecessor, but also attempted to garner as many senior Vault Dwellers to become complicit in this plan as possible. By 2277, the descendants of the Overseer had an entire generation of Vault Dwellers who were playing along with this plan, keeping the secrets from their children.

The Overseer and his cronies continued to receive periodic information from the outside world, while those not in the know were told that things had gotten so bad that whoever was sending transmissions was no longer able to do so; reinforcing the thought that leaving the Vault was sheer suicide. The final piece of this grand experiment only truly began when the Vault Dwellers living in blissful ignorance finally realized the world outside could be accessed, and there was a possibility of life above ground. The experiment only really commenced when the Vault 101 door first opened, and a young dweller fled into the light.

Regardless of who stole what Styles is not the point of the discussion, i think the point is still, the experiment is still sick, twisted, and wrong. Holding these people underground like Morlocks while being lied to is in itself completely unjustifiable, I think that this vault's experiment ending in failure was a blessing to these people, and i am glad there was at least survivors to this vault( in my playthrough))

Playing devils advocate here.... Yeah the Vault experiments are sick.. However look at the quality of life of the people inside vault 101 as opposed to those outside. Food is plentiful, the water is clean, Healthcare is to a high standard and redly available, There's a great education system, People are safe from Mutated creatures, raiders, etc, etc.

The vault 101 inhabitants weighed this up, and made the informed decision to seal themselves back in.

You don't seem to understand one thing. Vault 13 was to stay closed for 200 years, it was not going to open after just 20. It was a mistake that caused it to open early. Anything that could have been tested in Vault 101 could have been tested in Vault 13.

Vault 101 and Vault 13 were the samething.

Anyways everyone thinks it was Vault Tec, it was the ENCLAVE not Vault Tec. I am not saying Vault Tec had nothing to do with it but I don't think they would be able to build the Vaults and come up with these experiments without anyone knowing.

Indeed, blaming vault tec is like blaming the finger for pushing the button. The finger is connected to *something* and didn't get on the button by itself.

( You think i did not know it was not the Enclave? I am not that naive thank you. But calling Vault 13 and Vault 101 the same thing, even you know better than to say that. one opens in 200 years, one was not suppose to open and be ran by a despot overseer, look at that, i would not call that the same thing. That one opened 84 years later thank to a clerical error due to water chips being sent to the wrong vault, and the other being permanently opened 200 years later, i would not call that the same thing.

Regardless, even if Vault Tec was a front for the Enclave, they knew what was going on and knew what they were going to do, why would Braun have sealed himself and those of Vault 112 Two years before the war? They knew who's finger was on the button, and what shape the Chinese and the world was in, they wanted this Nuclear War, and this was their grand experiment to wipe the slate clean to restart in their version of things, and they used the various 105 experimentation Vaults to determine various courses or research from human psyche, scientific, to bio, mental, and various types of weapons research, as we know already from the released Vault experiments, in game or not. Granted anything could have been tested, and we do not know all the tests yet, and hopefully the other ones will turn out to not be so similar, as 13 and 101.)

They are the samething. The Overeer of Vault 13 had total control as well. The only difference was that one was to open 200 years after the great war and the other was to never open. Anything you can learn in one you can learn in the other. The Overseer did not want people to leave Vault 13 but was forced to send out the Vault Dweller to get another water-chip. If they did not get another the Vault would have to be abandoned. It does not matter that something went wrong and it was forced to open just after 84 years. It was supposed to stay closed. In the end people did up up going from the Vault to form Arroyo but some people did stay and once again closed the Vault. Vault 101 was also supposed to stay closed, but one overseer did open it. Point is the plan was for them to stay closed, therefore samething.

People wanted to leave Vault 13 but the overseer stopped them but was forced to send one person out to save the vault. People wanted to leave Vault 101 but the overseers stopped them, all but one, that did send people out because of curiosity.

People ended up leaving the Vault to go along with the Vault Dweller because they got sick of staying in a vault but some people stayed.. The people of vault 101 left the Vault because of the Lone Wanderer but they still stayed close to the Vault. Both the Lone Wanderer and Vault Dweller were tolded they had to leave the Vault and not come back.

The idea behind the two Vaults is the same. The plot behind the two vaults is pretty much the same. The outcome of the Vault Dweller and Lone Wanderer was the same "they had to leave for the good of the Vault."

Again one of these we have to agree to disagree, we are going off topic. It also helps if you played the games because you can learn more from them then you can from reading wiki/vault.

(I'll agree to disagree again, but i played all four of the original games btw, so don't "It also helps if you played the games because you can learn more from them then you can from reading wiki/vault." me again please, i was highly offended by that comment.)

My apologies to you. It was rude, sorry.

(apology accepted, now let us continue on...) :thumbsup:

When you get to conspiracies the size of the "Enclave conspiracy" theres a lot of compartmentalisation. Most of the folk at Vault tec had no idea what was going on. Some might have known bits, but I doubt any had the full picture,

Please try and remember that you brought up GNN after i mentioned that it would be foololish for the enclave to waste so many resources on the vaults if they weren't actually servina any real puprose. Also, the New plague news story broke, didnt it? that was a regulalar government program that would have definately been well gaurded.

I will play along though, and say the faceade easily could be exposed when Vault tech employees started noticing things that didnt add up, Likewise any opponants of government resources going towards the building of vaults would be looking for anything they could find to use as ammo in opposition of money, time and resources being used for vaults. aagain, this is just after resource wars. Pick up a paper sometime and look at all of the government programs that are under scrutiny and seen as wasting of taxapyer dollars. Given the whole new plage debacle, the resource and oil wars just ending and the borders being shut down, I would think that the public would be highly paranoid of it's government.



Of course most vault tec employees wouldn't now about the enclave.. which is what would make 1000 extra people being assigned to vault space all the more suspicious to a the vault tech employee that stumbled upon it. It's not the fringe element of the enclave that is actually doing all of the work here. it's normal vault tec employees and contracted employeeys that would be handling all fo the detains of the vaults. Also (and i gues this could go abaing one of my original comments), let's remember that even though the enclave had a hand in what happened in the vaults final outcome, there would still be normal governemnt auditing and facility walkthroughs and full testing of vault systems, prior to them getting the OK for public use. things like back up water chips would be accounted for at the time of the vaults completion- if they were shipped tot he wrong place, it wouldnt go un-noticed.. If an extruder wasn't there, or it ddint work properly, it would be noticed.. if a vault door did not close when it was tested, it would be noticed. would the real governemnt and public find out about all of this? Obviously (and quite surprizingly) they didn't. But it still doesn't make any sense to risk it. To put so many holes in the facade that your shadow government hides behind. especially when those holes are completely unnecessary-and they are, as i will go into further in this post..




loose lips sink ships. again, since vault tech is not with the enclave on paper all it would take is one vault tec employee, government auditor, consumer protection official, chinese spy, etc., to stumble across any thing wrong with the 105 Vaults that were not designed as advertised. Again. it is not necesarily going to happen and they may not connect the dots, but is a huge risk that the enclave takes. What is being risked is the entire enclave operation.
It still makes more sense for the enclave to actually utilize some of the vaults as there is no risk. or at the very least, use the vaults as fronts, take what they can from the vaults, but leave them as advertised as to not potentially call attention to the facade that funds their organization.




I am quite aware of what vaults are. you just aren't following me here.. What i am asking is, how is being sealed up in a space ship or in an enclosed environment on the surface of another celestial body different from being in an undergound vault? When the enclave makes it to their ultimate destination, off of the planet earth, will there be a regular oxygen rich atmoshere with the earths same magnetic sheilding from solar radiation? of course there wouldn't be. both the vaults and the enclaves moon base would be closed, controlled environments. however, going to the moon or another planet requires a lot more material, research, money and manpower (which all has to happen completely independant of the regular governemnt using the same resources) and has significant risks added. It is a lot more logical that they would just use the vaults as shelter.


I said the vaults would need to be practical experiments for useable data to be gleaned. they weren't. its not a matter of absense of evidence. they were according to the enclave, social experiments and not practical ones. Any other practical experimentation, accourding to you would not be able to be carried out, as there was not a few hundred years worth of time to do so, right? The reason that the vauts could not be used as for practical experiments are that they were not tested in redundancy, so any results would be on a case by case basis and could not be assumed as being consistant with even another vault experiment with the same set of conditions, So.. the vault experiments would be, like i said, useless. any social issues that they could possibly encounter on their ship to extra-terrestrial-utopia that would require experimentation in vaults, could actually be happening wheile they are on the oil rig for 200 years.
I could say that F3 caught a lot of flak because players had to fill in a few blanks for themselves, like you just did. but i dont have to.. just look at the oil rig in F2 and you can see that there's rust.

The oil rig being made out of metal could be another problem in and of its self. I am not entirely certain that it wouldnt be expremely radioactive just from being out in the environment. but that would be dependant on how irradiated the jet stream was after the entire planet was nuked and how much fallout fell over the section fo ocean the oil rig happened to be in. fairly certain it would be significant though.

that was the idea behind the vaults purported use. they were underground, away from the atmospheric radiation.

When I brought up GNN it was in the context of it reporting a public document - the Congress' budget. These are not secret nor is there any attempt to make them so - GNN probably recieves a copy in their budget press pack, and have the opportunity to pass it to finanicers, economists and auditors. If GNN finds a multi billion dollar line in the budget they're going to start asking questions and open the door to investigations if there is no good answer. This is different to presuming that an investiative journalist will discover the purpose of the vaults and break a story on it when they have no reason to suspect something is going on.

Hardly. This isn't the modern world, its 50's society but "Later".
What are we paranoid of? Communists! You say the vaults aren't safe? That's a commie lie designed to undermine confidence in Uncle Sam! Time to dial 555-MCARTHY and report the red - its our national duty. The government will keep us safe from the red Menace.

(note, this is just a little roleplay to highlight the point, I'm not making a political statement).

You're making a lot of presumptions. 1000 extra people? Easy. Have two different lists done by 2 different people that don't realise they're duplicating each others job - one at HQ and one at local office. The Back up water chips going to the wrong place wasn't unnoticed, there just wasn't any time to correct the error, or maybe the Vault 8 overseer didn't want to (M*A*S*H has some great examples of mishipments). The Vault door might close on "testing", a software switch somewhere could recieve a signal to realise that this time is for "real" and refuse to close the door (or burn out something needed to close it).

But what does the enclave want with 122,000 people? Everyone "worth saving" is in the Enclave. Everyone else... isn't.

They're not testing colonisation - they're testing transit - being stuck in a metal tube for what practically amounts for forever. They're also not testing physical effects like solar radiation, they're testing "Cabin Fever".
What good though is Shelter if the planet is no good when the door opens?

Which would requitre sacrificing good people to white noise tests, Psychotropic drugs, seperating the population to test male/female ratio, long term suspended animation use - The Enclave has no reason to use its own people as lab rats - quite the opposite, that's "moraly Wrong" in the enclaves eyes. The Vault population isn't "people" in their eyes - just lab rats.

Prevailing winds in that area blow from (south) west to (north) east. There's a whole pacific ocean that Chinas' blasts have to get over the ocean, and the USA blasts have to get around half the world on top of that. I doubt its significant unless there's a blast nearby.

That depends entirely on what you see the pre-war Enclave as, before the Enclave realised that they couldn't control the mainland their intention was to govern it.

I get the feeling that the Enclave, controlling Vault Tec, were not bothered about nuclear war starting.

If it had died down they would probabely have been disapointed because their experiment subjects escaped.

Though they probabely had more plans if nuclear war died down and/or disapeared.

They probabely prodded it along in some ways.

They probabely wanted the bombs to drop so they could make the world in their own way with the people from the vaults. The ones that were not mutated, insane, or anything else.

The others not in vaults would be good for labour or something.

Or be killed.

Well that was their plan. Obviously it did not work out that way.