I was wondering what the lore response to Oblivion's KoW was. Is he the real one, is he an imposter, or was Daggerfall's KoW the fake one? It seems that most players say that Oblivion's KoW is fake since he is so different then Daggerfall's in almost every way imaginable. Personally, I think that the KoW in Oblivion is fake and that Daggerfall's one is the only real one. :banghead: Why did you bring or try to bring him into Oblivion Bethesda? Why?

You just opened a CoW.

What is a CoW??? I'm new here. :bolt:

can of worms

both were real. dragonbreak and all.

Worms? What do worms have to do with cows? Well....I suppose cows CAN HAVE worms...But that would just be gross....

A real Sheogorath-ish response there.

I'd say that the OB one is real and the UESP thinks so too.

Until told otherwise, I'm going to assume the OB KoW is an impostor.

"it is unknown if the Mannimarco you face in Oblivion is the "True" Mannimarco" this is straight from UESP so I would say that it does not have any real confirmation if Oblivion's King of Worms is the real one or not. Also option number 2 means that Daggerfall's KoW was fake. Not that both of them were real incase there is any confusion on this.

I say that the problem with ob's KoW is two-fold.
A. level-scaling.
B. Villain decay caused by the writers not really trying to emulate daggerfall's KoW. I mean, daggerfalls KoW sent a zombie with a note in it when he had a job for you, expected you to fight your way through his monsters to get to him, and didn't really seem to notice how much of a [censored] that made him. Oblivion's KoW seems to be more of a generic wizard baddie.

Anyway, I say their both "real," but the writing for the ob's svcked.

Yes, and no.

The King of Worms kinda got his soul split into a half-dozen (exactly) components with the Warp In the West, whose fates varied from absorbing a massively powerful soul (either a bit of Lorkhan, if you trust the Acturian Heresy, or an overpowered battlemage) to become something like a god, to being stomped on by a giant golem by one of a variety of parties, to even possibly being near one of the giant explosions recorded as burning an agent's eyes out from a distance.

Whatever's left after that isn't going to be similar in power, even after fifty-odd years to regroup (or reassemble). The god-part was more ascended than the god-men and god-woman of Morrowind, so while it has unique capabilities of screwing over Arkay's Blessing and Arkay's Law, it takes a whole boatload of power to manifest in a strong form, and probably more power than any sane man or woman would want to touch in order to kill -- see the Dragon Break for a sample. The remaining five aspects... at best, they were driven from the best bolt-hole on the continent, stripped of a sizable portion of his resources, and forced into places where he could not get resources easily, even if he weren't on the print of a giant's foot. It certainly wouldn't have the same driving force; they went from having a magical solution to all their problems (godhood, immortality, to beat the Nine), to being faced with purely political ones. Whether the six combined into one or two major parts, or left as six separate entities, they certainly weren't the same sort of power afterwards.

That said, him being a crazed impostor, some recent nemesis of Traven, has a certain ring to it, too, but there's a certain irony in it being far bigger than that. If he's just an impostor, Traven's sacrifice is a noble but ultimately Pyrrhic victory; the impostor gets everything he wanted, even if he didn't realize it. If he's even a part of the real King of Worms, even the weakest part, it means that Traven's sacrifice saves the Mage's Guild and the work of Galerion -- the King of Worm's true opponent -- meaning that the 'good' guys win.

Of course, given the history of the Elder Scrolls universe, that's probably just more proof for the impostor part.

The one in Daggerfall was an awesome [censored] who was most certainly a Lich and was pure evil. he had the power to summon hordes of undead and a mastery of magic no other could ever gain. The one in Oblivion was killed by me in less then 20 seconds with a paralysis spell and a poisoned dagger.

The question here isn't which one is real, but rather which one should be real. I say the Daggerfall one, beacuse the Daggerfall one didn't make me cry tears of sadness and lose all faith in Bethesda.

Its funny I absolutely hate the Dragon Break, yet i'm becoming something of an expert on it.

This is the lore forum, and I assume that some of you just voted Daggerfall because the Oblivion one wasn't powerful enough. That's just a gameplay issue. Both were real.

1. Nah. That's got nothing to it but gameplay induced weakness.

2. Yes, everything there is from Arkay the Enemy to the Necromancers moon suggests this is the case.

3. Huh what? That was the faith of player if he didn't give up the totem.

4. That was a three-way clash between Daggerfall, Wayrest, and Orsinium.



Hah. Even if he is the god, he can still come back.

My response to Oblivion's King of Worms is to quietly pretend he didn't happen. It's easiest and is the only way I can ever be happy again.

I honestly had to think for 2 minutes what the OP meant by "KoW". I had to resort to using my brain cells D=

But really, my understanding of the Warp in the West is both are the real ones, but the real real one is the Necromancer's Moon.

I figured the one in OB was proclaiming the title in name only. Or perhaps he was a vassal the real KoW was using to project himself physically in Cyrodiil.

I think the best answer has already been given however, that relating to the Warp in the West.

I voted Daggerfall's since they are both so different.

The nature of the gods, whether et'Ada, man or mer reaching apothesis, or even the man-god Vivec, have a certain resistance to time, including the results of the Dragon Break and to similar temporal anomalies. There's something about them that is http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_18.shtml (thanks, that's an excellent link). We know this aspect applies to even the greatest Dragon Break because, as least as of Morrowind, a partially divine amulet http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke, with even the Elder Scrolls unable to perceive the time correctly (the exposed and soul-trapped souls within may have helped, but that's not clear).

Unlike nearly every other being in the Daggerfall portion except the Underking (who died/regained his soul/ascended completely, making his result moot) and possibly some Daedra, at least part of the King of Worms had to be separate from and simultaneously existing with the other timelines as soon as the Totem was given to anyone. Aedra and ascended beings are mutable, but they can't disappear or only exist in one point and not points in time after that point: even 'killing' them typically involves merely transforming them to the earthbones or transmuting them beyond their original aspects.

Might just be gameplay, so the console fanatics don't whine when the bad guy sends thirty zombies at them, but it's not hard to create a situation that reasonably explains the gameplay.

The stomping was only explicitly occurring to the character in Daggerfall, but giving the totem to any party but the King of Worms gave someone that didn't like him a massive, superpowerful, magical weapon. This is not, per say, great for his health. At least one of those timelines involved the Emperor completely overtaking the entire area, and having no small reason to aim for the King of Worms himself. There's nothing explicitly stating he got the crud beaten out of him, but the possibility in at least one timeline is not an unreasonable assumption.

The god-part is stuck as the Necromancer's Moon, and whatever rare manifestations it can provide. It's not even as powerful as Arkay, so it's unlikely it can pull off the serial reincarnated avatars Lorkhan managed. It may not even care about what happened to Mannimarco, or the Mage's Guild, with how important belief/worship is and how seldom "caring" and "necromancer" fits together. The un-ascended parts are still normal, if extremely powerful, mortals.

He could probably still come back anyway (can you say Lich King of Doom), but for different reasons.

Okay, background on liches.

A lich is a powerful necromancer who through the ritual involving the sands of resolve have cast off a physical body for the most part, usually they retain their skeleton which is bound by magicka. They become physically weaker but magically they become immensly powerful in comparison to most every other spellcaster. Mannimarco being the Archlich or first lich is the oldest and most powerful of the liches, necromancers, and pretty much he surpassed every villain that ever was.

Liches in the ritual remove their souls and place them in an inanimate object which is known as phylactery. Their physical body can be destroyed but until the phylactery containing their soul is destroyed they are for all intents and purposes immortal. Many liches hide their phylactery while others keep it with them at all times due to personal preference on what is the best way to preserve it. Mannimarco is no exception, and no one knows where his phylactery is or if he keeps it on him at all times. I would hazard a guess that Mannimarco being very wise and well learned in the world of Nirn has hidden his phylactery in a place that only he would know of and where only one of his power could reach it and even then it could literally be in a skull, and urn, or any number of objects which no one would be able to guess at.

As soon in the journal entry of a battle mage who killed his friend who turned himself into a lich, in destroying the lich it's dark consciousness took root in his soul and he became a lich only in a union of their consciousnesses. Though I suspect it is subject to who's will or consciousness is is more powerful or dominate. But what is known is that until the new transformation is complete the would-be lich is not at his best. It could very well be that Mannimarco after the warp in the west his body was destroyed and he took root in an altmer soul and assumed complete control of it's body. Though this is easily debatable.

What is in fact beyond doubt is that the KoW in daggerfall is in fact the KoW in Oblivion. His lack of power is due to Bethesda's inability to create a truly formidable KoW with their leveled system and their writing was just terribly lacking. I love Bethesda but in this instance they made a mistake.

Indeed, it's easy. But the approach itself is wrong-headed. The gameplay changes between each game, the world on the contrary is mostly persistent. So trying to explain the former is pointless when it contradicts the latter.

As such something like http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arkay_enemy.shtml where he claims godhood, or http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/necromancers_moon.shtml where it is claimed that "He[the God of Worms] will return to set the world right in due time" should take precedence over what was seen in the game.

Because assumption about the excistence of a mortal Manimacro, a impersonator or something else relies on the assumption that this wasn't the God of Worms, which is based on nothing but gameplay, the whole argument is faulty.

It's easy to explain the gameplay on itself. Bethesda has a long history of creating end divine characters that are easy to defeat. Vivec, Dagoth Ur, Umaril, Jygallag, ect. And in this case the story demanded a one trick pony that could be defeated by a properly dramatic mcGuffin. The result is a de-fanged mage in arms reach, pretty much the definition of a dead one.

They seen to have mistaken KoW for just your usual Lich, figured it was a bit weakened somehow and that was it. They didn't think of him as THE Lich.

Indeed, it's easy. But the approach itself is wrong-headed. The gameplay changes between each game, the world on the contrary is mostly persistent. So trying to explain the former is pointless when it contradicts the latter.

As such something like http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arkay_enemy.shtml where he claims godhood, or http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/necromancers_moon.shtml where it is claimed that "He[the God of Worms] will return to set the world right in due time" should take precedence over what was seen in the game.

Because assumption about the excistence of a mortal Manimacro, a impersonator or something else relies on the assumption that this wasn't the God of Worms, which is based on nothing but gameplay, the whole argument is faulty.

It's easy to explain the gameplay on itself. Bethesda has a long history of creating end divine characters that are easy to defeat. Mehrunes Dagon, Vivec, Dagoth Ur, Umaril, Jygallag, ect. And in this case the story demanded a one trick pony that could be defeated by a properly dramatic mcGuffin. The result is a de-fanged mage in arms reach, pretty much the definition of a dead one.

It is understandable though that people rather think this wasn't the real God of Worms because thinking about bad story writing distracts from the reality of the game.

Not just power, but appearance and 'style.' There wasn't really an overarching purpose to OB's KoW's threat, other than to annoy Traven (poke poke poke). In fact, the whole thing felt like it was the KoW trying to take Traven's place as the head of the Mages Guild or something and be the evil overlord of magic. His "followers" just wanted to make black soul gems... though for what purpose I'm not sure, since they were all empty soul gems and there wasn't anything to explain why they were making black soul gems. I mean, if they aren't enchanting weapons, what are they doing? Bargaining with Sload and Daedric Princes for power? No, they're just hiding in caves and making cryptic notes. Only the Mages Guild treats this as some sort of threat; no one else in Cyrodiil seems overly concerned. In fact, I don't really recall there being any reason to hunt down the necromancers and KoW other than on Traven's say-so.

It's not like he had a flying castle that turned people into zombies to conquer the world or something.

:lmao:

Tell me, was it ever a good idea to base your lich background info on D&D? And where does it say that Mannimarco is the first lich? Or that the term archlich appears in tes?