We don't know if we'll be even getting different ammo types in Fallout 4 so I doubt we'd get any kind of damage/defence system to compliment it. It sure would be nice if we did though.

Allow me to rain on everyone's parade and suggest that we won't.

New Vegas had Armor penetration, Hollow Point and some misc types that had their own unique numbers. Armor penetrating shots could translate over to DR, but would be a tad bit flawed. In the same way Overlords bypassing your DR was aggrivating, this would be too. As I stated in my video, 0% to 80% resistance is a huge gap. Negating 80% suddenly is just too drastic and would piss people off. It'd have to penetrate only a portion, such as 15% of your DR.....here's the problem. In order to discourage you from using armor piercing 100% of the time, armor piercing lowered base damage by 10%. This doesn't work with DR. With DT you can sit down and figure out if bypassing the DT provides an overall gain despite the 10% drop, but with DR...? If it says it bypasses 15% of their DR and you lose 10% damage, then wtf it's 5% more damage 99% of the time. You have no motivation not to use it.

Then Hollow Point....Hollow point doubled enemy DT (or more), but then could double your damage. If your base damage didn't exceed their DT, then you surrender all damage bonuses and you get hit with the 20% bleedthrough stick. Thus, Hollow point was worthless on high-DT targets. Under a DR system....? How the HELL would this work? It wouldn't. It simply wouldn't.

So the very mechanics we're familiar with from New Vegas simply won't function on a pure DR system.

Do you even know what the AMR is? It's not just a Sniper Rifle designed for anti-personnel use. We're talking about a big gun that was specifically designed to disable Howitzers and Tanks. Of course it's going to scrap some dude in Power Armor as easily as it can turn some dude in Leather Armor into a blood spray. There's a reason that enemies that actually use that weapon, are very rare.

Perhaps a good middle ground would be a nonlinear DR system, which would give higher DR % against low damage attacks and lower DR % against high damage attacks. This would give you quite a lot of flexibility potentially, by adjusting the DR curve you could get from something similar to DT with bleedthrough to something like a pure DR. The biggest problem I can see with such a system is it would be hard to understand.

Not tanks or the tank class APC like Bradley, however weaker APC/battle taxis as stryker, self propelled artillery, and helicopters including armored ones.

the 12.7 mm bullet is the same as used in the legendary M2 heavy machine gun.

And yes an armor piercing bullet will pass trough an power armor if you are lucky, unlucky and it start ricocheting inside the power armor.

That's not how the math works out. If something negates 15% DR but does only 90% of base damage, then against a target with 0 DR it'd just be 90% of normal damage.

Against a target with 80% DR, it'd deal 1.575 times as much damage.

Against a target with 50% DR, it'd deal 1.17 times as much damage.

Against a target with 25% DR, it'd deal 1.08 times as much damage.

Against a target with 15% DR, it'd deal 1.059 times as much damage.

Against a target with 5% DR, it'd deal 0.95 times as much damage.

But yes, a DT system makes all of this much simpler and more evident - and makes the DT system a preferred solution, since not having armor-piercing weapons or bullets is a dumb-as-rocks idea.

Easier by far would be to just use a DT + DR system, or make it so everything that has DT/DR has both at the same level if you want to make things have less numbers. So a 30 DT suit of armor would also provide 30 DR, etc.

Though do remember that any DR less than 50% does nearly nothing, since 50% DR is required to have twice as many shots be required to kill you. After you hit that point, incremental increases in DR are much more effective.

In Fallout 3 I used the coolest looking armor set. In New Vegas I used the coolest looking armor set. In Skyrim I used the coolest looking armor set, but I could also make it hella viable by investing into enchanting and smithing to make it badass.

So long as I can use the Armored Vault Jumpsuit and a set of custom Tesla Armor and not feel utterly helpless, I'm good.

Let me elaborate a bit on my prior post to counter certain claims made here.

The multiple ammo types of FONV were a total pain in the rear as far as gameplay is concerned. They were pointless as far as creating an enjoyable game. Unlike what some claim here, there was every reason not to use a variety of ammo types: weight, cost, inefficiency in fumbling around trying to change ammo for different enemies, and basic roleplaying principles. In reality, gun users of various kinds do not normally carry multiple ammo types and switch them out prior to or during enemy engagement. Normally, a squad would have different gun users using different guns and ammo for different purposes (i.e., specializing). It doesn't even make sense that such ammo would be commonly available in a post-apocalyptic world. Basically, having multiple ammo types gets into the same micromanagement that various people complain about regarding survival needs (i.e., sleep, eat, drink, environment issues such as heat and cold, etc.). Forcing such elements onto players does not add anything but annoyance for many people. It certainly does not increase the "fun factor".

Keep in mind that I say this as someone who plays with survival needs mods and/or hardcoe mode. I don't mind survival elements if they are handled well. FONV's hardcoe mode isn't hardcoe at all, not even with Sawyer's mod added on. FWE's basic settings for FO3 don't come close to difficulty in surviving either, so I have other mods/settings to make things much more realistic/to the point as far as having such elements active.

I play FONV with increased spawns and hardcoe mode on very hard but never have any need to change out ammo (except perhaps going from bulk ammo to regular ammo once I have some actual money which takes a very long time to achieve).

Maybe some people like to sit and play minigames in game, but that isn't roleplaying for my characters.

DT is totally pointless and unrealistic as far as how attacks and defenses work, at least the way FONV implemented it.

Besides, this isn't a military simulator, anyway, nor is it a gunsmith simulator.

I'm aware, but was too lazy to do the math at the moment and figured the overall point would stick, that being:

Regardless of how the math winds up, one ammo type would consistently prove superior to another. Not sometimes, but always, the only exception being armor penetration versus unarmored foes, which already die fast enough so as to not warrant an ammo switch. New Vegas' math worked because it incorporated multiple factors and the damage equation is decently complex (nothing in a game is gonna be rocket science, but you get the idea), but Bethesda's preferred system is too simple, so it doesn't allow for situational advantages and disadvantages, just superiors and inferiors.

Yes Bethesda, please free us from all these burdensome thoughts and complexities. Let us just make things blow up without having to plan things out at all.

Different ammo types are unlikely given how utterly useless they were in NV, due to DT's lack of damage negation.

We do know however that Fo4 will have ammo effects. Weapon mods that give weapons like the junk jet damage types like cryo, incidniary, and electric, can be seen in the E3 videos.

I suspect they will work similar to Skyrim's destruction magic types.

-Incendiary ammo will deal fire damage over time.

-Cryo rounds will slow down player/NPC movement, and drain AP.

-Electric damage will do more damage to tech users, like robots and PA.

There may even be perks or special weapon mods that give the damage types the special effects that Skyrim's do such as

-Fire causing a flee effect one the enemy reaches less then 20% HP.

-Frost gaining the ability to totally freeze an enemy below 20% hp.

-Electric giving a change to instantly disintegrate a target below 20% hp.

How was having the option to use different ammo types a pain in the ass?

To switch ammo types you need to hit exactly one key, x , to swap ammo types.

The majority of enemies in FNV have 0 DT so hollow points are the ammo of choice in most situations. For the very few enemies that have high DT, 15, namely deathclaws, giant rad scorpions (18), some NCR and legion assasins, you need to swap to something with AP or just something with big enough damage to punch through. The only really high DT of 25 was on the BoS power armor guys, for them you had to have a plan.

When I paly a gun user I always take the handloader perk and reload all my ammo. For me it is one of the better aspects of the game having to pay attention to what I am shooting and with what ammo.

As I've said before I think that a hybrid DR/DT system similar to what JSawyer mod had would be a good starting point.

Fun...fun never changes.

All of your solutions are terrible. NV was very easy even on the hardest difficulty if you used the right tactics. Just like every other RPG. Min-maxing, which is only logical, is the easiest way to play any game. Not only is it impossible for a developer to anticipate just how far people will go to make a game easier they have to also tune it for people who don't do that.

To meet your individual standards a developer would have to create a different difficulty mode that doesn't just make things hit you harder and enemies take less damage. Some people would prefer a system sort of like Call of Duty, where most guns will kill enemies quickly, or one-shot them, and you also die quickly. In that system RPG mechanics are useless. Some really do want HP sponges while it's tough to kill you. In that system if you don't take advantage of all the mechanics it is more frustrating. Some people want crazy difficulty where the enemies kill you fast and take a long time to die, along with perhaps different A.I. tactics that make them more difficult. Now, going from very easy to very hard does different things in that system better, but punishes people who don't min-max. Or if the system is complicated they won't know how to min-max. Again the issue is an open-world RPG is impossible to balance for without a crazy amount of testing or creating entirely different systems for individual players to use.

how cute. Now we are trolling.

really adds a lot to the topic.

Except its true.

You never had to use alt ammo types in NV because high powered weapons did so much damage you could kill even a guy in Pa in like 3 hits. Alternate ammo types like armor piercing where just massive overkill on what was already overkill.

DT or DR i actually don't care as long as they balance it so the game actually hard for a change at high difficulty.

im going thru my first play thru of NV without any mods at all and yeah ap/hollowpoint doesn't matter The Medicine Stick eats just about anything in 3 or less shots

Most 'creature' foes in Bethesda games have no armor, and instead just have ridiculously high HP totals. So, yeah, a hollowpoint-style round that makes armor more effective and increases damage to unarmored targets is useful - in New Vegas it can triple your damage output against a large number of common high HP threats (just about the entirety of the enemies in Old World Blues, for example, since those robots don't have DT).

And just because something isn't well balanced in the official Bethesda release doesn't mean that it can't be balanced, it just means that Bethesda is terrible at game balance (which they are and always have been and always will be). Modding Bethesda games for a better balance is basically required if you want it to be challenging or have fun gameplay. Unfortunately, Oblivion didn't do enough better - but the DT system is hella-lots better than the DR system it replaced, and the DT + DR system is better still.

Finally, just because one style of gameplay is viable means nothing - these games have been specifically designed so that casual players can play through at the hardest difficutly using the [censored]tiest tactics and still win, because difficulty is a no-no word in AAA releases nowadays.

Fallacious statement is fallacious. You can't predict the future so you can't say for sure if that will never change. It could very well have already changed. We won't know till after 11/10/15.

I am. I love different ammo types, different weapon types, comparing and optimizing damage output vs survivability. It's great fun.

Well, it is 2015.


Sure you can, look at the past. Even simpler, even less thought required. So i won't be holding my breath, and instead look out for modders that seem interested in F4
And as always: prove me wrong Bethesda! I dare you!


Yeah, me too. Planning ahead is part of the fun. Nowadays you need to buy indie games for that, but still


And is also an overpowered DLC cheat weapon, like the Sprtl-Wood that cuts trough anything like a hot knife trough butter.
If you use optimized EC packs with it, that is

It worked fine. Your bias is showing... Again, for the thousandth time...

the math disagrees.

You have no math to back up your bias or opinion.