His HP was fine when he hit the ground. It was definitely from the raider fire.

http://imgur.com/caEWNOs,ugDYYRc,mh02sK3

Now, assuming this is Todd's PC he has ~110 HP and this thus represents a loss of only about ~2HP from sustained fire from multiple raiders for several seconds. But it's still a loss.

i have never played new vegas unmodded so saying is once you got NCR Ranger combat armor or somthing of the sort was points to use anything else too midgate any more dmg?

i found that even at highest lvls unless modded bad guys rarely use "high tech weapons"

Without the diferents types of ammo (seens the case), DT system dont work, so i guess BGS hit the target in this matter.

plus, casuals likes to walk without direction shooting things and they are the target public for this game,so no DT system this time.

FNV with the JSawyer mod had it about perfect.

Light armor had DT in the mid to high teens, was stealthy and fast with a few perks to make it faster, stealthier or more lethal

Medium armor had DT in the low twenties and had DR in the mid teens. This gave it much more protection than light armor.

Heavy armor/power armor had DT in high twenties low thirties and DR near thirty. This gave it a real tanky feel and playstyle.

DT meant that you needed different weapons for different enemies. Against cazadores (0 DT) you wanted fast firing hollow points with a large ammo capacity, something like a fully modded 9 mm submachinegun did an outstanding job. Against giant radscorpions or deathclaws (18 or 15 DT) you wanted AP rounds or something firing a 0.308 round for the ability to punch through armor.

In a DR only system only dps matters. Ammo types will not make a difference other than one will always do more damage if there are more than one type. No more slow firing hard hitting AMR for dropping deathclaws and a submachinegun for the cazadore, now it will just be assault rifle for everything all the time (or whatever top of the line weapon will be the mathematical king of dps) No more thought needed as to what to carry or use other than a scope for long ranged shots.

DR also make it difficult to balance challenging encounters. If a fight is supposed to be challenging at 50% DR, at 85% DR it becomes trivial. Something that can kill you in three hits at 50% DR takes eleven hits at 85% DR. If the game is balanced around the 85% DR to kill you in three hits it will one shot you at 50% DR. Throw in weightless, plentiful, instantaneous healing stimpaks and you are immortal and can heal tank anything in the game.

Deathclaws were scary in FNV in that if they lived long enough to get into melee range with you, you were going to die. Dragons in Skyrim end up being annoying as they can't kill you as long as you can out heal the damage (at least when you get good gear, at low levels they are more challenging due to your lack of stockpiled healing potions or inability to chain cast a healing spell due to inadequate mana regen).

Umm, FONV was very far from perfect, and DT is a horrible idea. It's totally ludicrous that various weapons do no damage against various armors unless they meet a specific DT. That could work for very specific, rare equipment, but not as a universal game mechanic. Weapons and armor simply do not work that way.

DR only makes more sense because getting hit by any weapon will certainly damage you even if it is a small amount.

Now, they could add some type of mechanic to allow a chance for no damage. That's basically what RPGs have done since they began with D&D (i.e., the idea was always that "missing" an attack didn't literally mean missing, per se, but rather simply not hitting in a way that did any damage). The biggest problem right now is that the system has far too many misses compared to hits (i.e., successful damage versus no damage). Any skilled weapons user will usually hit in some way even if the damage is small, and in the context of Fallout the attempt is usually to kill, not simply damage/disarm, etc.

Another problem is the impossible actions of the AI, but I already posted about that in another thread.

Anyway, the point is that you cannot assume that all players want their characters to max out armor because that isn't roleplaying. This is an RPG, so there should be encounters that are trivial for some characters and not for others, as well as other encounters that are trivial for the latter characters but not the former. It's all about the respective abilities and how encounters are approached rather than a "one size fits all" where everyone aims for maximum armor (regardless of DT/DR).

I think DT is a wonderful idea; I would love to see a squad of Power armored troopers that carry energy rifles for serious threats, and sawed off shotguns to clean their suits in close quarters combat with unarmored locals.

Your's is the first post (other than my own), that I've seen this put to print; no one seems to get that.

do we even know yet how this combat system is even going to work yet ? i mean real confirmed information and not speculation

Real body armor does work similar to a combined DT/DR system. With class IV body armor with plate inserts I can shoot you all day with a .22 or a 9mm handgun and not kill you. One shot with a .308 AP or .338 Lapua round and your dead as it will just punch through the plate.

With the DR system if I roleplay a combat specialist who goes for the best gear combat will be trivial if it is not set up to one shot a role player with less armor. While with a DT/DR system combat is still challenging to a maxed power armor wearer as well as being survivable to a light armor sneaky guy. In Lonesome Road a marked man with an AMR can kill a power armor guy with a few more shots than a light armor guy but the threat to both is very real.

In a DT/DR system something like a giant radscorpion is scary due to a high DT but once penetrated it has little for hit points. In a DR system everything become a hit point sink, a bullet sponge since more armor just acts as a hit point multiplier. No more one AP round to the head to end it but just multiple magazines of head shots to wear down the hit points while you spam your own healing stimpaks to out heal the incoming damage, all the time you'll be wondering why the enemies don't use all these wonderful stimpaks to heal themselves.

Nailed it.

I enjoyed the various ammo types in NV using AP rounds on low to mid level fiends(?) and other NPC's actually felt like overkill, it would destroy them.

I fear this will be a world of bullet sponges, just like Broken Steel.

I agree it's a terrible system.....for entirely different reasons.

Damage Resistance is entirely too strong. Anything above 80% reduction of damage is stupidly powerful, to the point where only the most negligent players who don't know how to look at their health bar will actually die. Combine this with an ability to pause time and insta-heal stimpacks (assuming that carries over from FO3 too), then where on earth is the challenge?

DT was a good system because damage remained high. Both for you, and for your opponent. That deathclaw's 250 damage will only be reduced to 200 and barely afford you a third hit you can survive, but you too will only see your 220 damage shot reduced to 205. Either of you can kill the other, the X-factor determining the factor being your aim. Compare this to FO3 where their 150 damage (was less in FO3, as NV offered stronger forms) became a pathetic 30 damage a hit. 30 damage...? I can survive ten hits of this [censored]....But oh no, they gotta make sure I'm also hitting him for 30 damage for a nice, tedious slugfest that does nothing but waste resources like ammo and stimpacks.

I also find the complaint that power armor didn't fully negate damage from 9mm pistols to be ridiculous. In a practical sense, do you honestly expect to die if that 9mm shot is hitting you for 2 damage? I could stick 20 people armed with 9mm pistols on you and you'd still win with ease. Power Armor in New Vegas functioned exactly as FO3's power armor when DT negated all damage: it let only 20% of the enemy's damage through, making you practically a god.

Several people have pointed out the best solution would be a mix of both stats, ideally with damage resistance not getting too high (keep it below 30%), then stick DR only on power armor or the higher grade medium armors. This ensures that Light armor doesn't outpace power armor in a practical sense while still not making light armor worthless, should you just provide it with perk benefits such as movement speed and crit.

But yeah, this is actually one of my biggest laments for FO4 and one of the biggest reasons I feel I won't be dying. Go review the footage we saw again, then go watch the Power armor vs. Deathclaw fight. The minigun is tickling the damned deathclaw, suggesting Bethesda hasn't learned a thing and once again makes their enemies "harder" by giving them more HP and defense rather than damage. Meanwhile, you can watch the player's HP bar and see that each Deathclaw hit does about 10% health damage, making it practically identical to the damage we saw in FO3. If this is a game where fights are exceedingly slow-paced and I can pause time to insta-heal myself to full, then I don't see myself enjoying it much, since I enjoy a decent challenge.

DT means a .50 caliber sniper shot still feels like a .50 caliber sniper shot, whereas 9mm begins to only tickle or annoy you.

DR means I can shoot you in the face with a mini nuke and somehow you're perfectly fine "becuz powur armurz."

Let's not kid ourselves about which system is more stupid when left alone.

This is a good place for thresholds to be used. Imagine if all armor had DT, but that DT was reduced over time due to excessive damage. Imagine if the armor had its own hitpoints, and had a DT of 10% (just for example). So say it had 100 HP, and ignored any damage below 10 points, but would take 1 point of damage from an 11 point hit, and ten such hits would drop its DT to 9. One 50 point hit would do 40 points of damage to the armor, and drop its DT to 6.

In practice, lets say the armor had 600HP, and a 1% DT, so anything below 7 points was absorbed, and the DR split the remaining damage 70/30 with the wearer; so from a 30 point hit, the armor would take 17 damage, and the wearer would take 7 damage, and the armor's DT would drop to 5.8 from the hit; unless always rounded up, in which case it wouldn't change that time.

Obviously this could/should be tweaked; and could even be a 2% DT; or greater, or less, depending on the armor. Leather armor could be 1%, and power armor could be 8% (just offhand, to give example).

I think armors should have both DT and DR, like in the old games. Granted, it's still not completely clear as to how Fallout 4's DR works. The DR values we've seen on power armor are far too high to be the straight percentages like in Oblivion and Fallout 3, and the values we've seen on non-power armors are far too low to be remotely effective if it's using Skyrim's armor rating system, and it can't be Morrowind's "total armor value is an average of all the components" because we saw on the PIp-Boy that total DR is a sum of the components.

My hope is for the base of the armor to have a set dr, with the additional layer pieces we can put on overtop to have dt. Small arms fire would have to prioritize unarmored regions or knocking a piece of armor off (like what we've seen in the demo's) where-as slower heavy hitters would rather aim for vital areas to maximize the damage per hit they could do.

I think I may not end up even buying this game if they're regressing to all-DR bullet sponges. There's nothing exciting or fun about it. It's just tedious. Please let them see this.

Nah, it will just need a gameplay mechanics overhaul mod, just like every other game they've made since Oblivion

Oh, I'll PLAY it (after I get it onto my Steam Machine).

well I hope you plan to pay and play.

No, making an enemy, or you, simply immune to a damage type is not how games should be designed. That is just artificial difficulty defined.

Good game design is based around making everything able to kill everything else, given enough time, but requiring the player to have to out think actual tactics.

Simply making things immune is babies first RPG style design, and is why no one does it.

It is apparent they had god mode turned on for some part of that, as his ammo count never went down, despite basically holding the fire button all the time.

You didn't even need ranger armor TBH.

But yes, once you reached a certain point, getting more armor meant absolutely nothing in NV, because it was easy to max out damage resistance against low level weapons with stuff you can buy in Goodsprings, and high level weapons did so much damage that even Enclave PA offered no real additional protection then the stuff below it.

DT utterly destroyed the usefulness of power armor, by making it entirely equal to armor below it, but then also having it slow your movement speed by 20%, and costing like 10 times are much to repair.

Power armor was objectively the worst armor in the game due to how utterly broken and illogical the DT armor system is.

Not immune to a damage type, immune to low levels of damage. Maybe that 20% bleedthrough is necessary.

low level damage is what i meant by damage type.

*edit*

Ohh yes, I almost forgot.

Another problem with DT is that it destroys any sort of roles weapons had with the DR system, and just makes everything equally useful in every situation, so long as it does mediocre damage.... when they logically shouldn't be.

-When it comes to general combat, high DPS weapons like an assault rifle SHOULD be the objectively best choice. There is a reason why we use them in most non specialized combat situations IRL.

-Slow/single shot rifles should be used/useable only for sniper like attacks.

-Shotguns, and guns like the minigun that just pump out bullets even faster then normal assault rifles, but do low damage in the process, should only really be useable in situations when facing cluster/large numbers of weak and largely unarmored enemies.

This is how DR worked, and this is how it should work. This kind of system creates actual roles for specific weapon types, thus creating a trade off cost for specializing/favoring one type of weapon over the other.

DT just makes every gun work all the time so long as it does moderate damage, destroying any sort of trade off cost between weapon types, and turning what kind of weapon type you choose into just a barbie dress up option like it does armor.

The solution is to include numerous types of enemy in encounter groups, whether raider bands or radscorpion packs.

i guess i need to do unmodded playthrough thanks Awesomepossum for info

Leading to bullet sponges.