What threat did Umaril pose? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:22 am

Pelinal is an artificial construct?!!! Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!
What is he - A super advanced and sentient Knight of Order?
Anybody know what hard-light is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_light

And I said so, like, a year ago.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:13 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_light

And I said so, like, a year ago.

Sadly, that would require electron-photon quantum entanglement, with a control matrix controlled by some other construct at a remote location in order to remain stable, as otherwise it would decay almost instantaneously from a lack of energy input to maintain the entanglement state. The energy consumption of which increases exponentially with every additional quantum pair added to the entanglement matrix.

The "Solidity" would derive from electron valence repulsion forces, which are the same forces that prevent EG-- a knife from going through a brick wall-- that is to say, the strong force. This is why electrons would need to be employed in the entanglement matrix.

However, this suggests that Pelinial would have been highly vulnerable to shock based attacks.

this is a very far flung hypothesis, that I dont see much evidence for.

The evidence I see is that he was a magickal entity, resulting from a series of events that closely paralleled a mythic event.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:22 am

Sadly, that would require electron-photon quantum entanglement, with a control matrix controlled by some other construct at a remote location in order to remain stable, as otherwise it would decay almost instantaneously from a lack of energy input to maintain the entanglement state. The energy consumption of which increases exponentially with every additional quantum pair added to the entanglement matrix.

The "Solidity" would derive from electron valence repulsion forces, which are the same forces that prevent EG-- a knife from going through a brick wall-- that is to say, the strong force. This is why electrons would need to be employed in the entanglement matrix.

However, this suggests that Pelinial would have been highly vulnerable to shock based attacks.

The evidence I see is that he was a magickal entity, resulting from a series of events that closely paralleled a mythic event.

Trekkie speak aside, Captain, the hard-light thing is new to me. But the robot thing was hinted at throughout the texts that came with KoTN.

A previous post:

[whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers...he was Pelinal the Whitestrake because of his left hand, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Optimusprime-energyaxe.jpg

Edit: Oh, almost forgot the Matrix of Leadership: http://www.mwctoys.com/images/op_gone_wild.jpg.

Kinda.

Those weren't throwaway lines. They're references to lasers and technology and [censored]. Oh, and hill-[censored].

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:15 am

Some Star Trek stuff.

Dude.

Edit: Dammit, Albides beat me to it. KHAAAAN!

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:14 pm

Sadly, that would require electron-photon quantum entanglement, with a control matrix controlled by some other construct at a remote location in order to remain stable, as otherwise it would decay almost instantaneously from a lack of energy input to maintain the entanglement state. The energy consumption of which increases exponentially with every additional quantum pair added to the entanglement matrix.

The "Solidity" would derive from electron valence repulsion forces, which are the same forces that prevent EG-- a knife from going through a brick wall-- that is to say, the strong force. This is why electrons would need to be employed in the entanglement matrix.

However, this suggests that Pelinial would have been highly vulnerable to shock based attacks.

this is a very far flung hypothesis, that I dont see much evidence for.

The evidence I see is that he was a magickal entity, resulting from a series of events that closely paralleled a mythic event.

I don't understand all of the physics/sci-fi jargon, but how do you suggest Pelinal would have been vulnerable to electricity?
Does electricity somehow disrupt the forcefield making the hologram solid?
I'm only asking since the Aurorans and Umaril use shock damage weapons in KOTN(which I suspect is the real reason you decided to say this - yet at the same time back it up with some mumbo-jumbo) and:

he was Pelinal the Whitestrake because of his left hand, made of a killing light

Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight" [and he] was arrayed in armor [from the future time].

For a time, no weapon of the Ayleids could pierce his armor, which Pelinal admitted was unlike any crafted by men, but would say no more even when pressed.

and yet they managed to pierce his armor with axes and arrows, for Umaril had wrought each one by long varliance, which he had been hoarding since his first issue [of challenge.]... [Presently] the half-Elf [showed himself] bathed in [Meridian light] ... and he listed his bloodline in the Ayleidoon and spoke of his father, a god of the [previous kalpa's] World-River and taking great delight in the heavy-breathing of Pelinal who had finally bled... [Text lost]

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:23 pm

I don't understand all of the physics/sci-fi jargon, but how do you suggest Pelinal would have been vulnerable to electricity?
Does electricity somehow disrupt the forcefield making the hologram solid?
I'm only asking since the Aurorans and Umaril use shock damage weapons in KOTN(which I suspect is the real reason you decided to say this - yet at the same time back it up with some mumbo-jumbo) and:

Well.. without getting too detailed into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement, If the pair involved is a photon, and an electron, the electron will still exert EM force, despite having its momentum and spin governed by its quantum partner in the control matrix. this would allow the control matrix to use this phenomenon to use the strong force to manipulate normal matter, through the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_force

The relationship between such an artifical construct and its susceptibility to shock damage then becomes painfully obvious.

An electronic discharge would help to destabilize this entanglement matrix, and thus-- greatly disrupt its stability, by disrupting the entanglement state.

*edit*

This of course, GREATLY hinges on if the rules laid down by the earth bones parody traditional particle physics or not..... which there is little to no evidence for.

I am still of the opinion that Pelinial whitestrake was a myth echo, and that is where his powers derived from.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:26 am

Electromagnetic force I understand - a positve negative attraction.
Entanglement makes my head hurt!!! :banghead:

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:06 am

Electromagnetic force I understand - a positve negative attraction.
Entanglement makes my head hurt!!! :banghead:

Dont feel bad. Even Einstein didnt like it. He called it "Spooky action at a distance", and ridiculed it. However, it has been shown experimentally in a laboratory, and is real, at least in OUR universe.

you can consider it a means of exerting force over a distant particle (or--- collection of particles) using a control matrix at a remote location. By having some of those particles be electrons, you can use the innate properties of those electrons to manipulate matter outside of what is controlled by the control matrix.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:49 am

I am still of the opinion that Pelinial whitestrake was a myth echo, and that is where his powers derived from.

Myth echo? Does that mean Pelinal Whitestrake was later attributed with powers he didn't really have, or that he was based on an earlier myth?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:36 pm

Myth echo? Does that mean Pelinal Whitestrake was later attributed with powers he didn't really have, or that he was based on an earlier myth?

The latter. It is why the Ayleids were afraid of him. for them, the missing heart was the clue.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:33 pm

I am still of the opinion that Pelinial whitestrake was a myth echo, and that is where his powers derived from.

The latter. It is why the Ayleids were afraid of him. for them, the missing heart was the clue.

You mean he had powers as he was the Shezzarine - an aspect/avatar of Shezarr/Lorkhan, who had a missing heart and was the enemy of mer? I certainly hope so, I don't really want futuristic technolgies and science fiction dragged into TES. (the dwarves constructs are cool though)

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:01 am

You mean he had powers as he was the Shezzarine - an aspect/avatar of Shezarr/Lorkhan, who had a missing heart and was the enemy of mer? I certainly hope so, I don't really want futuristic technolgies and science fiction dragged into TES. (the dwarves constructs are cool though)

exactly.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:27 pm

I certainly hope so, I don't really want futuristic technolgies and science fiction dragged into TES.

Oops. Too late..!

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 pm

Oops. Too late..!

Damn it! They better not have guns, lightsabers, planes or spaceships in the next TES.
And if they have computers...... :swear:

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:22 am

Oops. Too late..!

it would be awfully boring if the world was continually pruned of advancement just to keep an artificial requirement that it should be a sword and sorcery game. A little technology gives it spice. Not my fault all those mages are purposefully ignorant (and therefor stupid.)

Nobody said that the technology has to be so anti-magickal. technology uses existing knowledge to do that which was previously out of reach of people. In a way, Praxography is a form of technology then, isn't it?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:40 am

it would be awfully boring if the world was continually pruned of advancement just to keep an artificial requirement that it should be a sword and sorcery game. A little technology gives it spice. Not my fault all those mages are purposefully ignorant (and therefor stupid.)

Nobody said that the technology has to be so anti-magickal. technology uses existing knowledge to do that which was previously out of reach of people. In a way, Praxography is a form of technology then, isn't it?

That would indeed be bad.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:29 pm

Damn it! They better not have guns, lightsabers, planes or spaceships in the next TES.
And if they have computers...... :swear:

That would svck. Unless they merged the tech with magic, maybe like the Clockwork City of Sotha Sil. Or, as someone stated earlier, Dwemer-style constructs. But, that's as far as I'd like to see it go. If I want high-tech, I'll go play Halo...

;)

Anyway, back on topic. I just finished Knights of the Nine a few days ago, and the threat that Umaril posed to Tamriel was obvious to me. While I don't think Pelinal was a "good" guy, in the traditional sense of the word (he was obviously insane), Umaril was a genocidal maniac that needed to be stopped. I think the game was clear in stating that - if Umaril returned - he would wreak havoc on the world at large. He strikes me as very much like the Hitler of the Elder Scrolls mythos...

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:34 am

Damn...
This thread is news to me.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:16 am

Damn...
This thread is news to me.

Are you sure?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:02 pm

Are you sure?

Well, you know, besides the fact that I made it. Talking about the last two pages.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:55 pm

Damn it! They better not have guns, lightsabers, planes or spaceships in the next TES.

Lets see...some Dwemer constructs had gun like appendages, Trueflame/Hopesfire were light sabers, the Dwemer had airships, Adamantine Tower is Akatosh's spaceship not to mention the Mananaughts have/had spaceships as well.

So you see we already have those things.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:17 am

Although your friendly neighborhood Word Merchant has never claimed to be a shining beacon of intelligence, I do have one thing that I'd like to add:

And although we all may be tired of talking about this, and we may all wish that some things in TES IV hadn't happened, we still have to svck it up and try to work it into our concept of the TES universe.

So lemmee get this straight...Pelinal was missing his heart, which means that Pelinal was the thing surrounding a hole. (Think "doughnut" vs "doughnut hole")

Sheogorath is the "Sithis-shaped hole", which means that he is surrounded by something....else he wouldn't be a "hole" now would he?

So the PC, via the KoN and SI expansions, becomes the doughnut AND the hole.

But what was there before there was a hole? A Heart. Where is the Heart? It was tied down with threads from the Covenant and Dwemeri enchantments.

Enchantments gone. (TESIII)
Threads removed. (Covenant ended via breaking in TES IV)

The Heart can come home. No more hole.....(i.e., no more Sheogorath).

Hole-y [censored].

All you have to do now is.....become the Heart.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:34 am

Well, you know, besides the fact that I made it. Talking about the last two pages.

He he.. I see.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:29 am

This has probably been stated above by others, but it sounds as if Pelinal was a hologram like in "Star Trek", solid light given the illusion of life.

Years ago I read an interesting book by the explorer Alexandra David-Neel, "Magic and Mystery in Tibet". Although I don't credit this part of her account, she claimed to create a tulpa one day.

Ordinarily this meant a Tibetan secluding himself in a cave for months while meditating on a form, usually in the appearance of a demon, until his hallucination becomes not only visible to others but concrete. David-Neel claimed to have created a tulpa in the form of a monk, which then accompanied her and other Tibetans travelling with her. Traditionally, a tulpa eventually becomes too independent and sly, a Frankenstein's monster, and has to be erased. David-Neel claimed to have done this as well, by a meditative process similar to its creation.

At any rate, Pelinal reminds me of this a little; a thought made concrete. As MK pointed out, though, he can also be seen like a Terminator robot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_David-N%C3%A9el

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtform

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:45 am

So the PC, via the KoN and SI expansions, becomes the doughnut AND the hole.

But what was there before there was a hole? A Heart. Where is the Heart? It was tied down with threads from the Covenant and Dwemeri enchantments.

Enchantments gone. (TESIII)
Threads removed. (Covenant ended via breaking in TES IV)

The Heart can come home. No more hole.....(i.e., no more Sheogorath).

Hole-y [censored].

All you have to do now is.....become the Heart.

Just rope it to the Prophet of Landfall and Tes V writes itself.