Anyone notice that? I thought it was a direct reference/attack on Richard Dawkins, Hitchens, etc who are trying to get Atheists out of the closet.

The Else-God Hater, The Obnoxious Castle Mage in Leyawin, "The Heretics" book in Shivering Isles, the book about the the underground root system/ atheism, the story of Vaermina and the Mad god with the angry atheist who gets executed, etc, etc. etc. It seemed like one of the lore creators in Bethesda had a personal prejudice against Atheists.

But on the flip side we have the Zealots. And http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Alessia_Ottus. And Primate http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Valandrus_Abor.

Edit: And the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alessian_Order, considered by the Colovians even today to have been the "bad guys"

[snip]

Edit

I think the point of the OP is that while there are both good and evil religious people in Oblivion, Atheists are being uniformly bashed.

Maybe it's because in the TES universe, the existence of gods isn't in question.

Else God-Hater isn't an Atheist, she just hates the gods. Yes, all the gods. They can bite her garters.

But yeah, an Atheist in Tamriel is wrong, because the gods provably do exist there. There's no point drawing comparisons between our two worlds.

Technically, Else-God Hater hates the Divines, but doesn't stop her from becoming a sleeper agent of Mehrunes Dagon (Daedric Prince are gods).

If ya referring to the Heretical Thoughts, its more that these people cannot comprehend the idea that the god they saw is in an appearance of a man (the avatar) and therefore, he isn't god, (but in reality, they are living in a god, the realm itself).

While the existence of said creatures may not be in question, it does not follow that their divinity is not in question. As far as I remember, this were the exact question posed in Azura and the box where (dependent on edition) Azura did or did not know what was inside the box. Naturally, this leads to the somewhat philosophical question: What makes a powerful being divine? This question has particular potency in the magical world of The Elder Scrolls, where common folk can learn and practice magic. In the real world Zeus was considered divine by the ancient Greeks, possibly because they believed him to have power over the skies (and weather). In the magical world of The Elder Scrolls, a powerful mage could be assumed to hold similar power.

Either you're entirely misunderstanding what divinity means for a polytheist mythos, or you're about to lead a group of Mer on a geographically and spiritually transformative migration.

Zeus is not divine (simply) because he can control the weather. That's a vast oversimplification. Zeus' divinity is a consequence of his heritage (born from Cronus, born from Uranus), and all the symbolism that involves; and his status of divine kinship is a consequence of his defeat of his father, and all the symbolism that involves. (All of which is relevant to TES: war between the divines, anyone?)

Now, if you're asking why any of the beings in TES should be worthy of worship:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-twenty-one

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-thirty-one

And don't forget about Love. You gotta have Love. Without Love, it would just fall apart.

One might argue that in a world where gods do in fact exist, the Tribunal-centric Dunmer were the closest the world might have to atheists. They had previously rejected the Aedra, then rejected the Daedra, to worship essentially an idealization of three of their own people-turned-divine.

And no, don't cite the Dwemer, because they were Antitheist. There is a difference.

In the real world where there is no evidence one way or another, claiming that there absolutely cannot be a divine being is simply logical fallacy.
In Tamriel where there constant physical evidence, claiming that there are absolutely no gods would be a completely insane thing to do.

Since those two situations are so completely separate, making such a statement that Oblivion bashes atheists is incorrect. There are no parallels to draw here.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Heretical_Thoughts

It does when atheists are stereotyped in the exact manner Christian apologists seem to do in real life. The whole book is just a mocking of Atheists such as Dawkins, and Hitchens with the claims that by proclaiming their atheism, they are creating a religious order. Notice the robes.

As for Else-God Hater. People pointed out that she isn't an Atheist, but just hates the gods. But that's the whole point, it seems to be borrowing another slur against atheists here to define them. "They surely couldn't disbelieve in God, they are just petulant and angry at him/her."

Most of the time, the author seemed to be breaking the fourth wall just to bash on Atheists.

There is a huge difference between claiming that there is not and can never be any god(s) and claiming that a commonly worshipped god is really an imposter. The Heretics are not a parallel to real world atheists.

Else, without projecting too much onto her, it should be noted just hates the Aedra. She wants definitive evidence of the Aedra's existence and power. Since they are by their nature static, such evidence is only in what is already there, and the similarities with atheism end there. Tangible proof requires Padomaic energy, which is the realm of the Daedra. Upset about an institution obsessed with stasis and simply existing, Else wants to define herself through actions and chaos. Thus she turns to the Daedra, specifically Mehrunes Dagon who judges his followers precisely upon what they have accomplished.

I think what you're struggling around is this underdog/rebel complex that the institution of Atheism has acquired and making sweeping parallels against other rebellious organizations going against an established God.

Of course, like all things with media, it's all about interpretation. If you want to interpret that Oblivion has a strong antiAtheist undercurrent, that's your prerogative.

It could be very interesting to have a discussion of different ways the denizens of Tamriel think about the "divines." It can even be worthwhile to draw comparisons with real world religion and mythology. But be very, very careful about claiming something in the game might be refering to a particular real world issue - e.g., Dawkins/Hitchens as controversial figures - as that gets dangerous close to violating the religion and politics bans.

But I seriously doubt there was any intention to target people like Dawkins or Hitchens, or atheism in general. The general thought was probably: here's a standard view, let's put in a few people who disagree with it to make things interesting. I think you're reading way too much into it.

Honestly, it isn't obvious to me that the Shivering Isles "bashes" either the zealots or the heretics. I think they're different points of view, but not obviously strawmen of any real world positions.

Yeah bingo...in the real world it's a valid and healthy debate..in a fantasy world like Tamriel you'd have to be stupid to not notice the gods exist.

If I were on Nirn I would bash Atheists as well.

Thou I'm not sure how many actually have seen avatars or such of the "gods".

Because religion in TES is proven real, hence the avatar of Akatosh and presence of Daedra.

Anyone who's an athiest is just being ignorant to real fact.

Whereas in real life, religion is unproven, and can be wrong.

You're an atheist; otherwise you wouldn't have posted this thread. Is Richard Dawkins your god? Why would an attack on atheists be an attack on Richard Dawkins? And here I though atheists didn't believe in anything...

In TES, gods actually exist. You have the Aedra, the Daedra, the et'ada, and several non-entities that can't be properly categorized.

If you live in Tamriel and believed in nothing, you would be an idiot. The Dwemer were agnostic and simply believed that the Mephala, Azura, and Boethia were simply very powerful Daedra, not gods. In the end, they built their own god.

Geez, some atheists are so offenseive (as opposed to defensive).

I'm atheist and I don't see it as atheist-bashing. In Tamriel you'd just be ignorant not to believe in the gods, they're proven. Actually, it wouldn't be a belief, because its a proven fact. The word belief suggests faith in something non-proven.

Who the hell is Richard Dawkins and why should I care?

What the others said is what I agree with. The gods in TES universe have been proven to exist. Even in, say, medieval times in our world, without the proven existance of any deity, atheists were persecuted, so a little "atheist bashing" by the people of a universe with gods that have been proven to exist shouldn't be all that surprising, considering that an atheist in TES universe would be ignorant.

sidenote: I am not depicting my beliefs of anything in the real world, I am merely stating what would be in the context of the series. To make it perfectly clear, I do not believe atheists are ignorant, but I am merely saying to be atheist in TES universe would be a little foolish of that person if they were real.

Considering some of the hateful nonsense that's spewed out of the mouths of Dawkins and Hitchens, comparing them to Else God-Hater is a compliment. :shifty:



Like what was said earlier, she is a sleeper agent for Dagon who obviously hates aedra. That DOESN'T make her an atheist.


Tsavi? First off, how is she obnoxious? Secondly, she's only upset with Alessia because of her cultural bigotry. It has NOTHING to do with religion.


The heretics are not necessarily atheist just because they think Sheogorath isn't a god.

:facepalm:
Wrong. Once again, Don't worship Sheo =/ atheism

Shano? He's a tragic character that has been manipulated by Sheo and Vaermina. How exactly did you twist this into "Bethesda hates atheists?"


:rofl:
Your entire argument here is based on the fact that they wear MAGE ROBES?!

Oh, please, do go on.


More likely, it seems you're looking for some prejudice on the part of Bethesda that doesn't exist. The entirety of your argument sounds like one of my OCD spikes. Persecution complex much?

Hmm, atheist bashing...can't say anymore than what was already said. You are just looking for things that don't exist. Even the dwemer knew about the gods, but doubted their power, and sought to become gods themselves by going as far back as to the first time Padomay and Anu butted heads as the Numidium.

to all those saying that atheism in the elder scrolls universe is absurd and therefore should be subject to ridicule:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist

That's basically what the lore writer was doing. What concerned me most was the characterization of the "heretics" to fit the exact mold of the real world stereotypes thrust upon atheists by religious apologists.

You're speaking metaphorically about Anu and Padomay, right? Dear lord, you're not, are you?

What source are you getting that from? I don't doubt you, I've just never read it before.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

And by first butting heads, I mean when the Aurbis came when the two forces, Anu and Padomay collided.


Dude, do you that only fits in the context of Shivering Ilse? You are really looking WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too hard into this to the point you can find anything you wanted, even when it's not even there.