[jodie]

I agree some people take the game too seriously, or the "war" between the originals and FO3 too seriously... but there is also room for debate on the real meanings, social commentary and politics involved in Fallout's story.

In that regard, I definately think it is worth examining the Enclave's beliefs and seeing what positices or understanding we can get from it. I repeat my earlier statement: with no morals, and pure logic, the Enclave arguement actually makes sense, somewhat.

As for role playing a member of the Enclave, that makes no sense, since no matter what you do they attack you on sight in the game.

[Trista Jim]

:rolleyes:

Okay, RAmerica, have it your way. It's just a game, so your opinion doesn't have to make any sense... I agree, actually. It's not terribly important.

I repeat my earlier statement: with no morals, and pure logic, the Enclave arguement actually makes sense, somewhat.

Of course it makes sense, from a logical perspective. It's 100% logical that murdering every mutant (with even the slightest mutation, I remind you) will pave the way for restoration of a pure human species.

But the Enclave "supporters" in this thread aren't thinking in terms of pure logic. They are arguing in terms of good and evil, of patriotism, and all sorts of other moral ramifications. RAmerica himself said, "The Enclave are the lesser evil" -- already it's become a moral debate.

I completely agree that the Enclave's goal is quite logical. I disagree, however, that what the Enclave plans to do could be considered anything other than pure evil on par with Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler. That's why the developers at Black Isle designed the Enclave with that goal -- they wanted players to see a role reversal, of a United States of America that, in the post-apocalypse, is no different from Hitler's Germany. It's supposed to have shock value.

Exterminating huge swathes of people to achieve your goal is the worst sort of evil. I'm not being "way too serious" about this, but I think making statements that essentially say "the Enclave isn't that bad" shows an ignorance of what the Enclave is really about.

[Cedric Pearson]

I like the Enclave, without the Enclave the Main Quest wouldn't be fun and well... let's face it, they have great armor and weapons. ^_^

Their armor was ridiculously nerfed in FO3 compared to FO2.

[liz barnes]

Their armor was ridiculously nerfed in FO3 compared to FO2.

It sure was. I got a mod to fix that as soon as I realized how much Bethesda had nerfed it.

It's tough to fix it exactly right, though, since the non-typed damage reduction, character attributes, and carried weight values are so dissimilar from the originals. A bit of guesswork makes for a pretty good approximation, though.

[Cool Man Sam]

It's tough to fix it exactly right, though, since the non-typed damage reduction, character attributes, and carried weight values are so dissimilar from the originals. A bit of guesswork makes for a pretty good approximation, though.

Don't forget the lack of damage threshold.

[Marcia Renton]

Don't forget the lack of damage threshold.

I'm not forgetting, it's just that in Fallout 3 there's only a simple "lol, damage reduction" number for armor. Fallout and Fallout 2 armor had AC (chance to soak damage entirely), threshold (damage taken reduced by that value) for multiple damage types, and resistance (% reduction of any damage that makes it past AC and threshold) for multiple damage types.

Because of the simplification in F3, weapons just do "lol, damage" -- which is a problem, since Power Armor in Fallout and Fallout 2 had certain weaknesses. In F3, armor strong against one type of damage is strong against everything (since there's only one type...), making it hard to "unnerf" Power Armor properly.

Why Bethesda decided to go with "lol, damage" and "lol, damage reduction" instead of adding just a tiny bit of depth and complexity is beyond me.

[Susan]

Their armor was ridiculously nerfed in FO3 compared to FO2.

All of the Power Armor was nerfed to the point where it was practically useless, not just the Enclave's. If Bethesda's goal was to "balance" the PA, then they did a pretty poor job. I'm hoping that Obsidian makes Power Armor useful once again in New Vegas.

[Rachael Williams]

All of the Power Armor was nerfed to the point where it was practically useless, not just the Enclave's. If Bethesda's goal was to "balance" the PA, then they did a pretty poor job. I'm hoping that Obsidian makes Power Armor useful once again in New Vegas.

Power armor, especially the T51-b armor from Anchorage or You Gotta Shoot 'em in the Head, are still a lot more powerful than any other type of armor in the game at the end of the day. If they made them less godly compared to the older games, it was likely to make it so the other armor wasn't completely ignored.

You have to remember Bethesda fans like myself like to dress our characters up in cool outfits...

[Matthew Warren]

If they made them less godly compared to the older games, it was likely to make it so the other armor wasn't completely ignored.

Unfortunately, it also made encounters with Enclave patrols ridiculously easy compared to FO2.

[Nichola Haynes]

Unfortunately, it also made encounters with Enclave patrols ridiculously easy compared to FO2.

Definitely true! When it came to encounters with Enclave patrols in Fallout 2, unless you were cheating, or had a lucky day, you generally got chewed up pretty quickly. Now as you progressed, the encounters became more balanced, but there still was good reasoning behind finding/acquiring power armor. Fallout 3, made Power Armor just another accoutrement that you could wear(but it really added little to the game).

[Chloe :)]

Power armor, especially the T51-b armor from Anchorage or You Gotta Shoot 'em in the Head, are still a lot more powerful than any other type of armor in the game at the end of the day. If they made them less godly compared to the older games, it was likely to make it so the other armor wasn't completely ignored.

You have to remember Bethesda fans like myself like to dress our characters up in cool outfits...

Power Armor is supposed to be a lot more powerful than anything else... that's the point. Intact, powerful technological devices in Fallout are the Holy Grail of the setting. Power Armor is meant to turn an infantry soldier into a walking tank, and that's exactly what it does (well, what it used to do). All other armor should be ignored, because Power Armor trumps it all. It's a nuclear-powered, man-sized battle tank. Nothing else comes close.

Nerfing it for the sake of people who want to walk around in fedoras and t-shirts (I like to do that too, by the way) is silly and unnecessary, because you can play dress-up if you're a stealth character who doesn't need armor, or if you're hanging around town somewhere.

In the first two games, it took a lot of doing to find Power Armor; Fallout 2 was a little too free with it in my opinion, but still it was rare until the end-game, unless you ran straight to San Francisco or Navarro. In Fallout 3, there's Power Armor popping out all over the place within the first few hours of the main quest, which is why they put in a "Power Armor Training" perk. Even with that restriction, halfway through the game you couldn't swing a stick without hitting some Power Armor. Lootable Power Armor = bad idea.

Definitely true! When it came to encounters with Enclave patrols in Fallout 2, unless you were cheating, or had a lucky day, you generally got chewed up pretty quickly. Now as you progressed, the encounters became more balanced, but there still was good reasoning behind finding/acquiring power armor. Fallout 3, made Power Armor just another accoutrement that you could wear(but it really added little to the game).

I agree with you on this one, at least.

In Fallout the original, getting your first suit of Power Armor was an awesome moment. In Fallout 3, it's just... yeah, that's cool. I guess.

[MISS KEEP UR]

Power armor, especially the T51-b armor from Anchorage or You Gotta Shoot 'em in the Head, are still a lot more powerful than any other type of armor in the game at the end of the day. If they made them less godly compared to the older games, it was likely to make it so the other armor wasn't completely ignored.

You have to remember Bethesda fans like myself like to dress our characters up in cool outfits...

Power Armor is supposed to be an ultimate late game armor, though... that's what Black Isle designed it to be. Bethesda stayed true to the late game aspect (initially) by requiring the player to obtain "Power Armor Training" due to the fact that they could pick up a suit of Power Armor before they even spoke to Three Dog. Unfortunately by the time you're able to use it, what's the point? You can easily take down Enclave patrols with just your vault 101 jumpsuit. Even if Power Armor was actually useful in Fallout 3, that wouldn't mean you couldn't use other armors.

Power Armor wasn't godly in the first two games by the way; it was just quite a bit more difficult to kill someone wearing Power Armor as opposed to Fallout 3 where you can take down an entire Enclave patrol with a pistol, and where you can still be easily killed by a few rampaging mole rats.

[Tamika Jett]

Lootable Power Armor = bad idea.

Looking back, this annoys me, too. Bethesda did it before in Oblivion (Imperial Palace Guards, early Dremoras), so why not just make power armor a no-no till later in the game?

[Pumpkin]

Looking back, this annoys me, too. Bethesda did it before in Oblivion (Imperial Palace Guards, early Dremoras), so why not just make power armor a no-no till later in the game?

In my mind, what's exciting about Power Armor isn't what it looks like, but what it represents (or should represent) in the game world.

Imagine trudging through the wasteland for months, saluaging crappy armor and weapons from whatever scraps you can find, blasting highwaymen and twisted mutant creatures (often surviving only by the skin of your teeth), and foraging for tasteless pre-war rations and filthy, irradiated water wherever you can find it....

Then, one day, you discover the ruins of an old military depot. After an incredible and dangerous adventure, you find one unscarred storage cylinder deep within the bowels of the ruins. You restore power to the cylinder, hack the computer that controls the access keypad....

And there is something neither you nor anyone else (save some very powerful, secretive organizations you've glimpsed) has seen before: A priceless artifact, a great wonder... an intact and fully functional suit of Powered Infantry Armor that will turn you into a walking tank. Radscorpion claws, molerat teeth, small arms fire... you no longer need to fear these things while trying to survive.

THAT is Power Armor as it should be.

[Adam Porter]

A great reason to support the theory that Power Armor, is to make an infanteer a walking tank:

2065, August: The need for increased mobility in US Army Mechanized Cavalry units, leads the military research companies to focus their research to create a man based tank - the Power Armor.

[Angela Woods]

In my mind, what's exciting about Power Armor isn't what it looks like, but what it represents (or should represent) in the game world.

Imagine trudging through the wasteland for months, saluaging crappy armor and weapons from whatever scraps you can find, blasting highwaymen and twisted mutant creatures (often surviving only by the skin of your teeth), and foraging for tasteless pre-war rations and filthy, irradiated water wherever you can find it....

Then, one day, you discover the ruins of an old military depot. After an incredible and dangerous adventure, you find one unscarred storage cylinder deep within the bowels of the ruins. You restore power to the cylinder, hack the computer that controls the access keypad....

And there is something neither you nor anyone else (save some very powerful, secretive organizations you've glimpsed) has seen before: A priceless artifact, a great wonder... an intact and fully functional suit of Powered Infantry Armor that will turn you into a walking tank. Radscorpion claws, molerat teeth, small arms fire... you no longer need to fear these things while trying to survive.

THAT is Power Armor as it should be.

Funny thing is the game has this moment, in the "You Gotta Shoot 'em in the Head" quest, and only if you do it the right way. They make that svcker look like the be all end all and if it truly was the ultimate nothing like it armore, that would be a great moment.

The problem is it's not that much better than common normal power armor, and then worse yet they release Anchorage, which can give you the same thing, only impervious to damage, at level two.

So, I get exactly what you are saying, I am just saying I understand the motivations behind Bethesda's decisions... there was some armor in Morrowind that was rather ultimate, and once you knew where it was and how to get it, there was no point using anything else. Both Oblivion and Fallout 4 are built to prevent that kind of gameplay,

[Marquis deVille]

One of the main problems I find with Power Armor in Fallout 3 is the fact that there are so many different types of Power Armor in the game and this kind of diminishes the potential for it to be uniquely powerful versus every other types of armors found across the wasteland. There's a total of 14 different PAs listed in the wiki

In my recent time playing F2 (Finished it last night) I think they generally have only 2 types of Power Armors regularly found (The normal unnamed T-51B and the Advanced Power Armor). I know that there are Hardened/Mk2 versions of these aforementioned PAs (The former I could get only 2 and the latter is unique?) and there is also the Tesla Armor and named T-51B (But I think they are uniques only also?).

I think that if there had been less variants of PAs running around and they were more balanced against each other, then the whole uniqueness of the PAs would be more evident as well as be better balanced. :shrug:

StingingVelvet: Too true. Oh well, I enjoy collecting at least one of each and placing them as trophies/displays in my own personal museum of asskickery :hehe:

[carla]

In my recent time playing F2 (Finished it last night) I think they generally have only 2 types of Power Armors regularly found (The normal unnamed T-51B and the Advanced Power Armor). I know that there are Hardened/Mk2 versions of these aforementioned PAs (The former I could get only 2 and the latter is unique?) and there is also the Tesla Armor and named T-51B (But I think they are uniques only also?).

Tesla Armor is not a power armor, unlike in FO3.

[Izzy Coleman]

Funny thing is the game has this moment....

Yes it does, in a manner of speaking, but that moment is tarnished and diluted (pun intended, see ahead) by the ocean of other Power Armors falling out of everyone's ass for nearly the entire game.

Power Armor is supposed to be rare and special. It's like Bethesda put that one suit on a pedestal, then spammed slightly less powerful and slightly different-looking Power Armor all over the place.

This is actually part of the reason why it's a bad idea for the Brotherhood to be part of a main quest from the beginning. The player is supposed to experience a feeling of awe when it comes to Power Armor and advanced weaponry, but when your pals are all wearing it from the get-go and you find some in every locker....

The Power Armor situation illustrates how Bethesda failed to understand a key aspect of the franchise. They made Power Armor into the Fallout equivalent of Indoril Medium Armor.

[yessenia hermosillo]

Not to mention that the new Power Armor isn't very Fallout-like. The T-45d, Enclave APA MK II, Tesla Power Armor and Hellfire Power Armor have torso coverings while the T-51b and APA from Fallout 2 do not. If lower torso coverings were actually useful don't you think Black Isle would have placed them on the T-51b and the APA? Of course they didn't, covering the lower torso (especially in the manner Bethesda implemented the coverings) would limit movement for the guy inside. Can you imagine crouching and having that torso plate stab you in the stomach? That didn't happen in Fallout 3 though, as the torso plate miraculously bent its shape depending on your movement. I didn't think Bethesda's power armors looked like they belonged in the setting to be honest, because of details like this.

[jenny goodwin]

I was thinking the same thing, every time I see someone say "ohzz yeah, brudduhhood s\/kz, enclave does bomb runs n has sweet power rmer, and ar duh last, best h0pe for @merica!" I think, "Oh yeah? How about when they start shooting at you and calling you mutie? Love them then?".

Personally I hate BoS and Enclave.

The Pitt Forever


Ah crap! Just realized how their leaders were all corrupt pigs, but they themselves didn't have minds of their own!... Their justs grunts to the big man, like us Americans are today!

[Jani Eayon]

Yes it does, in a manner of speaking, but that moment is tarnished and diluted (pun intended, see ahead) by the ocean of other Power Armors falling out of everyone's ass for nearly the entire game.

Agreed... for the most part. It is different and more powerful, when I start a new game I look toward it as a goal and the best armor, which I must work toward to get... it's just not quite epic enough or different enough to make it feel as special as you describe.

And then of course Anchorage ruined the whole thing and gives an even better suit or armor, the best in the game, to anyone straight out of the vault at level 2.

This is actually part of the reason why it's a bad idea for the Brotherhood to be part of a main quest from the beginning. The player is supposed to experience a feeling of awe when it comes to Power Armor and advanced weaponry, but when your pals are all wearing it from the get-go and you find some in every locker....

In their defense, it is quite hard to run straight from the vault to GNR and encounter the Brotherhood, or downtown DC in general. Typically you would get slaughtered in such a situation... Still, I agree with what you are saying. I wouldn't have minded the BoS being there and wearing the suits if you couldn't pick them up and use them so early... the training comes too early in the game if you work for it, and then from then on you have constant power armor at your feet.

Maybe making the T51-b the only power armor in the game you can actually pick up and wear would have been the way to go... you can imagine the complaints on here from Bethesda fans though.

[lydia nekongo]

I think it'd be good if, after being restricted from the Power Armor the Brotherhood is using, when you get the T51-b armor and walk up to the Citadel, their reaction is something along the lines of "What in the HELL are you doing with that? You're coming with us to see Elder Lions." with there being a big chance of coming at odds with them over it.

[Roddy]

I've noticed a lot of sigs and comments backing the Enclave here since I started posting again. Was there some kind of massive thread I missed where everyone fell in love with the antagonist? I'm not just saying this because they're the bad guys in two thirds of the series. These guys seem like legitimately terrible people to me. This isn't like the Marvel Civil War or something. I can't empathize with their cause.

What'd I miss?

The Enclave is against other species, not races. Most humans outside of Vaults or Enclave bases are mutated minorly, but in a way that the Enclave deems them unfit for breeding. Honestly, would you let a person with genes coding for an extra leg or something like that mate?

[Jennifer Rose]

Honestly, would you let a person with genes coding for an extra leg or something like that mate?

In a word, yes.