[Javier Borjas]

Hypothetical question...


If you could look ahead in the Fallout universe and see the future of civilization, and it ends up the constant radiation eventually causes much worse side effects that ruin humanity, and spreads to those previously "pure", would the enclave still be evil? Or would that advantage of foresight show them to have had the right idea all along, kill many to save even more?

I'm not saying the story is set up like that... again, it's a hypothetical.

The problem with that is, you know what is supposed to happen at that point, however, you don't know what will happen if you change something, you can't see the other outcomes until you activate them. I do believe there was a Trek episode that followed that, a guy kept changing time over and over to "save his people" and in the end, brought more chaos and caused the same problem he set to prevent. Besides, the future is ever flowing, ever changing, no one could be certian that what you saw WOULD happen.

In the end, maybe its for the best, after all, humanity had a chance, and pretty much destroyed the planet, maybe it would be for the best if we simply were gone, after all, we keep repeating the same mistakes, and that is what the Enclave seems to do, repeat its mistakes over and over.

[Charles Weber]

Hypothetical question...

If you could look ahead in the Fallout universe and see the future of civilization, and it ends up the constant radiation eventually causes much worse side effects that ruin humanity, and spreads to those previously "pure", would the enclave still be evil? Or would that advantage of foresight show them to have had the right idea all along, kill many to save even more?

I'm not saying the story is set up like that... again, it's a hypothetical.

Here are my problems with this hypothetical:

Firstly, killing many to save more doesn't apply really as the Enclave is a big minority versus the number of others around the wasteland, remember that to the Enclave only those born into their own are "Pure", thus going the Enclave extermination route would effectively only kill off the majority in order to save the "Pure" minority.

Secondly you are removing all aspects of human adaptability. If anything humans in the Fallout world have the ability to adapt to the effects of radiation via mutations, in fact evolution in itself is a form of mutation. The way radiation affects humans ingame is a way that humans can adapt to it and live with it, very much like the way the humans in "I am Legend" adapted to become a new humanity with those traits that resulted from the worldwide bacteria. In Fallout it's even more ridiculous as radiation can actually cause mutations that are beneficial to people such as rad resistances, telepathy, etc. Naturally I am leaving out other factors such as FEV combining with the entire population, as FEV would have to be deployed to cause effects on the populace I don't consider a factor like this when discussing the natural evolution of the species going strictly from the current natural effects found in the Fallout world.

Basically, I don't believe that the current world would inherently ruin humanity as humans would adapt to it and live on. Would humans be exactly the same as before? Probably not, but that hardly constitutes the ruin of humanity in and of itself anymore than humanity was ruined when it went from Cro-Magnon to Homo Sapiens.

Besides the Enclave is one of the most, if not the most, technologically advanced faction in Fallout. Instead of using all their technology and expertise in finding some magical way of eliminating radiation, safely removing the effects of exposure, etc; they instead experiment on anyone outside their faction (Mostly fatally) and otherwise exterminate those they don't capture. If the long lasting effects would somehow destroy humanity as a whole (Turn all of us into mindless ravenous zombies or outright simply kill off the species) the Enclave could have invested a much more different approach as to how to "cleanse" humanity.

No matter how you try to see the Enclave's pov, there is no rationalization to their goals. They can't be right because they simply want to kill off anything that isn't exactly genetically like them. That is racial genocide; immoral, unjustifiable, petty, cowardly and ignorant.

So yes they will always be evil because the reasoning behind their actions are as evil as the atrocities they commit.

My two caps...

[Timara White]

One of my favorite novels is Richard Matheson's "I am Legend", not to be confused with the atrocious adaptations that were made for movies. In this book a worldwide bacteria effectively altered the entire human race into beings most closely resembling vampires. Robert Neville, the only human in the entire planet that was not altered spends his days and nights hunting/killing these creatures indiscriminately as well as brutally/fatally experimenting on them trying to find a "cure" and revert things back to the way things were. What you learn is that there are 2 types of vampires, the feral types that behave like monsters (Though they are very cunning) and another kind which have learnt to adapt to their new existence and create a brand new society.

Neville killed both types without second thought as to him there wasn't any distinction between the 2 types and all he ever could see is that for humanity to be humanity they had to return to being like we all are here in reality (Yeah cause we're really so great as we are now huh?). After he is captured, he is put on trial for his indiscrimnate murdering of those that were not hostile or feral, but nonetheless killed because to him were the same as the others. The story here is that Neville, who you follow through the story and identify with and root for, is not the hero he thought himself to be or the savior of humanity he wished to become but in fact himself the real monster; he is a legend because he becomes the boogey man in the nightmares of all the children of what has now become humanity.

I find that what happened to humanity in Fallout is synonymous with what happened in "I am Legend" and to a degree, I find the Enclave comparable to Neville. Whatever existence humanity has to look forward to in the post apocalyptic future, and the potentially rebuilt future that follows, humans themselves are irrevocably changed and adapted to this new world. The Enclave meanwhile says "if you're not like me you're a monster and must be destroyed at all costs because I want things the way they were", paraphrasing something similar to what Neville thought, mixed in with a large dose of Nazi-like fascism, philosophy and extremism.

In layman's terms the Enclave are a-holes!


My two caps... :hehe:

I agree with you on all accounts, but I just think if Bethesda has the balls too put the Enclave in the next game, we should be able to join them.

[Laura]

Eden isnt really bad, he was probely programmed to do this. He doesnt know better. Thats why you can convince him to blow himself up. The other guys are bad though.

[Tom Flanagan]

Eden isnt really bad, he was probely programmed to do this. He doesnt know better. Thats why you can convince him to blow himself up. The other guys are bad though.

Eden became self-aware, he's no longer functioning on what he was "programmed to do".

[Nana Samboy]

You sound like you actually believe in what the Enclave is doing despite the fact that Black Isle and Bethesda both made it quite clear that the Enclave is very evil. I find it amazing, and disturbing how so many people can actually defend such a one dimensional faction of lunatics and murderers.

As distasteful as it sounds, it takes great power to unify a people. I'm looking at this from a political point of view. Even the most shallow review of world history shows that empires are created by conquest, and that conquest is often driven by people who cared very little about individual rights.

One could argue that the best hope for the return of a "normal" society is the Enclave. We get a glimpse of all of this in the Pitt DLC. Do the ends justify the means?

So, how do you unite people? One way is to cast the world into an us vs them paradigm. The "us", according to the Enclave, are people. The "them" is everything else. It's the typical race card. The purity aspect reflects the difference between the "us" and the "them". They are mutated into something not human. Us are still human, and "US" demands our birthright.

[Scared humanity]

I like the Enclave because they're hysterically funny. Seriously.
John Henry Eden is a supercomputer who grew up with his dog in a log cabin in idyllic rural Kentucky and rants and raves about how great baseball once was to win the hearts of a bunch of people he plans to kill sometime soon, President Richardson in Fallout 2 was completely incompetent, lived on a boat and would have to be reminded by his advisers to tell his ever-so-free people how stalwart they've been all this time. They intend to destroy pretty much all chance for people to just get on with their lives as best they can, in the name of SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST RAWRRGH, even though at the end of the day, they can be defeated by some tribal dude with an INT of 3 who beats them all up with his bare hands.

They're hilarious. I love them.

[Ludivine Dupuy]

I like the Enclave because they're hysterically funny. Seriously.
John Henry Eden is a supercomputer who grew up with his dog in a log cabin in idyllic rural Kentucky and rants and raves about how great baseball once was to win the hearts of a bunch of people he plans to kill sometime soon, President Richardson in Fallout 2 was completely incompetent, lived on a boat and would have to be reminded by his advisers to tell his ever-so-free people how stalwart they've been all this time. They intend to destroy pretty much all chance for people to just get on with their lives as best they can, in the name of SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST RAWRRGH, even though at the end of the day, they can be defeated by some tribal dude with an INT of 3 who beats them all up with his bare hands.

They're hilarious. I love them.

You're absolutely right. The way you put it, even if its not a moral issue, why would you join a faction that could be toppled so easily by one person. It is hilarious.

[Kara Payne]

Morally, I think the Enclave is full of [censored]s. They kill virtually every Wastelander that doesn't grovel at their feet, and even then they'd just use them to get vital information.
I mean, it's a wonder so many people are actually relishing in their ideals when they're seriously effed up. They plan to purge the Wasteland of all mutated life. And that includes pretty much anyone, since most Wastelanders are irradiated.

All they want is to keep America to themselves, and re-populate it themselves.

[sw1ss]

Some posts removed. Let's see if we can avoid Godwin's Law in this thread, ok?

[Philip Rua]

I like the Enclave because they're hysterically funny. Seriously.
John Henry Eden is a supercomputer who grew up with his dog in a log cabin in idyllic rural Kentucky and rants and raves about how great baseball once was to win the hearts of a bunch of people he plans to kill sometime soon, President Richardson in Fallout 2 was completely incompetent, lived on a boat and would have to be reminded by his advisers to tell his ever-so-free people how stalwart they've been all this time. They intend to destroy pretty much all chance for people to just get on with their lives as best they can, in the name of SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST RAWRRGH, even though at the end of the day, they can be defeated by some tribal dude with an INT of 3 who beats them all up with his bare hands.

They're hilarious. I love them.

Yes, but T-Pain was on the Boat with us. So we win.

[Lauren Dale]

The modified FEV strain is a virus developed for Genocide based on your "health". If you are infected you're screwed. If your heavily irradiated, you are as well. Race in this matter, has nothing to do with it.

In the long run the Enclave was trying to rebuild civilisation (exactly) like it was before the Great War.
All others factions are trying to rebuild civilisation. Just that.

To be able to rebuild civilisation as the En you need to get rid of what makes it differ from what is was before the Great War, otherwise it will not be like that particular civilisation. Try to just rebuild civilisation needs you to get your stuff together and start working.

I think that rebuilding civilisation as it was, is not the best course. Humankind will eventually get back to the same status as it was during the great war, and as soon as the effects and memory of the Great War of 2077 have vanished (takes a while, I know) it might even happen again.

If they just rebuild society that certain society will be based on the results of the Great War and it's aftermath, therefor making it less likely that it will happen again.

In short, just rebuilding civilisation has a chance for a better future.

The FEV is a bad choice anyway.

Spoiler

It kills you off as well since Mom and Dad weren't born in the Vault, and neither were you....

Eventually the Supermutants would die out (or grow to be Behemoths and wreck the new civilisation) since they are not able to reproduce themselves and most likely would be hunted or just killed to protect itself by the emerging civilisation. Same for pretty much any other extremely dangerous creatures.

Enclave are what they say they are: The Remnant of the United States of America.

A country dead and destroyed. Time for a new one.

[Annika Marziniak]

Now first of all I havn't played Fall Out 2

I havn't read all threads so sorry If I am repeating something, I am not a supporter of the Enclave but trough I don't like that the Enclave are 'pure evil', and Lyon's BoS, are 'Holier than Holy Knights', it reminds me to much of J.R.R's The Lord of the Rings where everything is either good or evil there aren't really any shades of grey ...

The Enclave might look like the Nazi's but do not forgot that a typical soldier of the German Wehrmacht during the Second World War was just nothing more than a soldier on allies side nothign more nothing less, they most likely wouldn't drop fingers like in Fall Out 3 wich I really did found troublesome, a typical Enclave Soldier is just following his orders filled with propaganda nothing less than a German Soldier born let's say 1927 only a few years before Hitler's coup, by the time he is filled with propaganda nothing less, thinks everything outside the German Empire is considerd to be 'evil' ... Remind me to watch the Der Untergang that movie shows the downfall of Hitler's Empire in Berlin but what might be also intresting is the story of a Jong Hitler Jugdend Boy who discovers the truth about the third reich and can't crop with it ...

Ofcourse I prefer Casdin's Outcast it might have be proven a intresting faction if in Fall Out 3 Beth did do something with, but Beth left it really out and don?t come with A O that was just a silly rogue outpost .... I guess only Casdin's Outcast might be worthwhile to form a stern but hard dictorial regiem.

[Robert DeLarosa]

Professional Organisation/Chain of Command
Weapons and Equipment

These are the reasons why I like the Enclave, and I think it svckS that you can never join them. I mean come on.. how many people got kicks out of killing friendly NPC's in the fallout series? Hmmm?? And I can't enjoy the idea of mass genocide of what I consider to be 'freaks'?Yeah it's evil, but how many games have the US government, outnumbered and outgunned, with a tight military force working closely with it's higher ups like the PRESIDENT I mean thats just awesome... I am a little scared when the Enclave fan-boys defend their love for the faction with the BS propaganda... But HEY! these nut-case fan-boys are the type of men who the Enclave would have enlisted in the armed forces! Makes sense to me. But it's just like the Half-Life 2 rubbish with that whole Combine-fan-boy thing going on... the "good law enforcement" trying to "keep the peace". These kids are forced to put a 'spin' on all the cool fascist stuff we see in games but yet never get to play as.

And yeah I said fascist, so what? Doesn't make me a Nazi, I don't like Nazi's I want the jews to be left alone, but on the flip slide, German Military was awesome, yet even today NONE of the Call of Duty games have a german campaign, we have a russian campaign, and these guys were [censored] [censored]s they slaughtered more then Hitler, they [censored] and murder their way thru Germany, and our 'allies' later became our enemy during the cold war, and because of them the whole fallout story started anyway! So what the hell?! Damn red sons of [censored]es.

This "Enclave love" is nothing but the built up urge to play as fascist killing machines, something game developers continue to deny us gamers from doing. We can play mercs, pirates, thugs, mafia, criminals on the bloody street.. but NOOO heaven forbid we play as genocidal nutcases... I mean come on now.. I would rather have games with genocidal soldiers fighting for their country, then the same old punks blowing up squad cars in GTA or fighting in some war that isn't 'deep' enough in plot so it can remain politicaly correct for today's sappy media that doesn't dare want to offend anyone. Seriously, gamers are for advlts, we know evil and good, we dont need "Every side is good/okay" blah blah.. Who the hell would fight in a war if they fought the otherside was as justified in their cause as their own??

But ah well, at least we get to play with the brotherhood... better than nothing.

[katsomaya Sanchez]

Professional Organisation/Chain of Command
Weapons and Equipment

These are the reasons why I like the Enclave, and I think it svckS that you can never join them. I mean come on.. how many people got kicks out of killing friendly NPC's in the fallout series? Hmmm?? And I can't enjoy the idea of mass genocide of what I consider to be 'freaks'?Yeah it's evil, but how many games have the US government, outnumbered and outgunned, with a tight military force working closely with it's higher ups like the PRESIDENT I mean thats just awesome... I am a little scared when the Enclave fan-boys defend their love for the faction with the BS propaganda... But HEY! these nut-case fan-boys are the type of men who the Enclave would have enlisted in the armed forces! Makes sense to me. But it's just like the Half-Life 2 rubbish with that whole Combine-fan-boy thing going on... the "good law enforcement" trying to "keep the peace". These kids are forced to put a 'spin' on all the cool fascist stuff we see in games but yet never get to play as.

And yeah I said fascist, so what? Doesn't make me a Nazi, I don't like Nazi's I want the jews to be left alone, but on the flip slide, German Military was awesome, yet even today NONE of the Call of Duty games have a german campaign, we have a russian campaign, and these guys were [censored] [censored]s they slaughtered more then Hitler, they [censored] and murder their way thru Germany, and our 'allies' later became our enemy during the cold war, and because of them the whole fallout story started anyway! So what the hell?! Damn red sons of [censored]es.

This "Enclave love" is nothing but the built up urge to play as fascist killing machines, something game developers continue to deny us gamers from doing. We can play mercs, pirates, thugs, mafia, criminals on the bloody street.. but NOOO heaven forbid we play as genocidal nutcases... I mean come on now.. I would rather have games with genocidal soldiers fighting for their country, then the same old punks blowing up squad cars in GTA or fighting in some war that isn't 'deep' enough in plot so it can remain politicaly correct for today's sappy media that doesn't dare want to offend anyone. Seriously, gamers are for advlts, we know evil and good, we dont need "Every side is good/okay" blah blah.. Who the hell would fight in a war if they fought the otherside was as justified in their cause as their own??

But ah well, at least we get to play with the brotherhood... better than nothing.

I think I actually agree with you.

That and due to Beth making the Brotherhood Of Steel put on a "We're Saints of the Wasteland!" look on their faces, it makes the Enclave look more EVIL, and what to do people like to do? PLay as an evil person, or in a evil faction.

Now the main idea to what led the BoS to become Saints is one heck of a good idea, but it does screw with things for people who have never played Fallout 1 or 2. Alot of my friends think the BOS were just as nice back in the first two games, and my jaw dropped as I listened to that. The BOS were always wanting to collect Technology, nothing else was in their mindset. They were almost just like the Enclave in a way. They didn't accept outsiders unless you were born within the BOS (if we exclude The Scourge) though I may be wrong because I'm not a huge lore master( If one is in this thread please correct me.). Enclave are the same way.

But what splits the BoS and Enclave in a major way are motives. The BoS want to preserve technology and will do whatever to keep it safe, even put it above human life. The Enclave wish to rebuild the world that was once America, however they can.

What I'm trying to say is that if Bethesda stuck to what the BoS actually are(techno-preservers) and kept the Enclave as a mysterious group without trying to throw out the motives so much, their wouldn't be this huge 'love' effect for their faction.

That is all.

[Oscar Vazquez]

Funny you mention that, I consider the Enclave soldiers to be a mix of 'good/evil' its high command to be evil. I myself prefer to play as the good guy in games, yet I like the Enclave so go figure. I agree about the BoS, great thing about fallout is the factions with the power to help, don't. I always liked that, and I did enjoy having elements of the BoS trying to lend a hand, it was refreshing, but when people say 'BoS' is the saviour of mankind blah blah, it's just stupid. They dont give a damn at all, oh sure BoS lend a hand here and there, but they never consider it to be their duty to help.

As for the Enclave, the loss of the Oil Rig and the slaughter in Fallout 3 somehow doesn't make me think it's enough to kill em off. Since fallout tends to be all about regional conflict, I'm sure the Enclave can pull another army out of it's ass for the next game. But I would really like it if the Enclave hide away for awhile, draw up their plans etc. It's enough for the fans to know they are there in the background, but we don't need another star-wars storm-trooper enemy to gun down. Gosh, why not have the player come across towns 'cleared out' by enclave, always being one step behind, catching sight of of a Vertibird flying about, thats enough IMO.

[Yama Pi]

I've got a love-hate relationship with the Enclave myself. At one point, I'm all like "Wow man, these guys kick ass!" and then on another note I'm all like "Gosh, I really do hate the way these guys operate".

[Richard]

After playing Fallout 2 through again for what is probably the thirteenth time at this point, I was reminded of a few important tidbits of information.

Regarding the modified F.E.V. virus, in Fallout 2 President Richardson states that the modified F.E.V. will kill any human who isn't specifically inoculated against it. In fact, one of the quest options on the Poseidon oil rig is to convince an Enclave head scientist that the Project is evil and morally reprehensible, at which point he will agree to release the modified F.E.V. into the oil rig's ventilation system, killing everyone except for the Chosen One, the Chosen One's companions, and the Vault 13 and Arroyo captives.

So the Enclave wasn't just planning to kill all mutants; they were planning to kill everyone except for persons whom the Enclave deemed worthy of inoculation (i.e., Enclave members), and to do so on a worldwide scale. At that point, there is no defending the Enclave's actions as being anything less than evil and wrong, even if you're the sort of poster who believes mass murder is fine for the purposes of preserving a "pure" human race. I guess it's slightly different in Fallout 3, the F.E.V. having been refined to automatically murder only mutants and not pure humans.

Another tidbit is that Captain on the vagrant tanker (among others) states that the oil rig is "the last Enclave base." Could someone remind me how Bethesda explains the Enclave's magical resurrection in Fallout 3, given that the oil rig is destroyed in a nuclear explosion? I'm guessing the explanation was either "Just kidding, Captain was wrong and there are other Enclave groups" or "The guys from Navarro and some stragglers moved east, somehow taking all of their technology and production capacity with them."

[lexy]

Who cares about defending the Enclave, I still like them all the same. And I don't see anything magical about them being in F3. The way I see it, the Oil Rig was the last Enclave base, not because it was the only facility, but because the higher up's decided to locate there. After it was destroyed, all remaning Enclave elements, under new leadership, got new orders to secure other facilities and make them operational. Always assume as I have, that the Enclave have a running support/supply base or bases somewhere in the US, that continue to fuel the war effort, these places are what contain the tech and production capacity.

Besides it's been mentioned that the Enclave never lacked in equipment or facilities, but in man-power.

[Peter lopez]

Always assume as I have, that the Enclave have a running support/supply base or bases somewhere in the US, that continue to fuel the war effort, these places are what contain the tech and production capacity.

Well, in my opinion that's simply a convenient form of deus ex machina: No matter what happens to the Enclave, they can always come back in a sequel due to "surviving remnants" (or some other explanation)... not unlike Jason Vorhees, who despite being shredded, exploded, burned, stabbed, shot, impaled, and so on and so forth, continues to return for each Friday the 13th sequel. Of course, Jason's immortality actually makes sense in that fictional world. He was dead to begin with, after all.

I call it "magical" because it's annoying for the Enclave to be a Villain That Is Never Truly Killed Off, Despite All Appearances?. That breaks the fourth wall for me.

Enclave = zombie...?

Besides it's been mentioned that the Enclave never lacked in equipment or facilities, but in man-power.

Obviously not manpower either, since nuking the oil rig (which housed thousands of them, according to oil rig scientists) did nothing to stop them from being equally strong on the East Coast in Fallout 3.

[jess hughes]

Obviously not manpower either, since nuking the oil rig (which housed thousands of them, according to oil rig scientists) did nothing to stop them from being equally strong on the East Coast in Fallout 3.

We don't know the total strength of the Enclave. All we know is that they lack man-power, and if they have/had thousands of troops, to the Enclave it's still a shortage. For all we know, the Enclave may be a massive force thats spread far and wide, because they act as if they have enough to keep going, to rebuild america, and to defeat their communist enemy. However thats just me defending the lore, I can see your point of view too and I admit the Enclave has been written up to keep coming back w/e happens.

If they are in future titles, I would prefer them to be hidden away in the background, watching and waiting.

[Hannah Whitlock]

I would love for the Enclave to hide for awhile and reappear very, very strong. I want to see the BoS actually lose battles and not some giant Anti-Communist spewing robot. I want the Enclave to have new technology, like use more with Tesla and maybe get a hold of Gauss. Maybe even expand what they have with Plasma.

Infact what would really be interesting if the East Coast BoS are losing so much they need help from the Outcast, and eventually call the West Coast BoS for reinforcements. That would probably put a bit of fear into people if they need that much help.

That or maybe I just urge for a nice battle between tons of BOS and Enclave. (I'm such a blood thirsty fellow.)

[Jeff Tingler]

I think the reason for a lot of the Love going the Enclaves way is for several reasons.

The first being that everyone loves to hate a good evil baddie.
The second being that its quite nice that they arent -pointlessly- evil like a lot of evil baddies.
The third reason and perhaps the most important for me is they are perhaps the only part of the Fallout 3 game that remains consistant to the Fallout Universe. The Enclave of F3 is pretty much as evil and xenophobic as the Enclave of Fallout 2.

Several other significant parts of the game spun off into "ooohhh lets add this cos it just so roxxors so hard man!" territory on the part of the developer and "whut?" territory for those of us who actually have a clue about the Fallout universe.
The inexplicable departure of the Brotherhood of Steel from established BoS behaviour/doctrine/lore. The inconsistent with previous games irradiated water sources dotted around the wasteland. The fact that Supermutants suddenly changed skin pigmentation without any explanation and the fact that they seem to be there as little more than cannon fodder for the pc.

I could go on but I wont.

lol.

Thats my take on it anyway.

[Melis Hristina]

The first being that everyone loves to hate a good evil baddie.
The second being that its quite nice that they arent -pointlessly- evil like a lot of evil baddies.
The third reason and perhaps the most important for me is they are perhaps the only part of the Fallout 3 game that remains consistant to the Fallout Universe. The Enclave of F3 is pretty much as evil and xenophobic as the Enclave of Fallout 2.

I agree with all of that, especially the third part. The Enclave was one of the few organizations in Fallout 3 that still felt exactly like the canonical Enclave, minus the insane and brutal antics of Frank Horrigan, however (which makes sense, obviously).

The only problem I have with Fallout 3's Enclave is that I felt Bethesda essentially combined the Master (from Fallout) with President Richardson (from Fallout 2) in a sort of twisted dual fan service. The Master was a megalomaniacal cybernetic AI entity whom the player can convince to commit suicide, President Richardson was the immoral, deluded President of the United States, and John Henry Eden is a megalomaniacal computer AI acting as the immoral, deluded President of the United States whom the player can convince to commit suicide.

In my opinion, that's sort of like combining the Goa'uld from Stargate SG-1 with the Wraith from Stargate Atlantis to make the new villains in the upcoming Stargate Universe.

[Jarrett Willis]

You lost me at Stargate.