[kiss my weasel]

Eden was actually more reasonable than Autumn I thought, you could convince Eden he was wrong and to destroy himself and the remnants of the Enclave. Autumn you could persuade to leave, but he did so grudgingly and there was no guarantee he wouldn't try again.

Eden's a computer to him using the modified FEV is just practical for his plans to come to fruitation. Autumn just wants to increase the enclave's power. There goals aren't bad it's there methods to reach those goals that are.

I'd take death over slavery, myself... that's essentially what would happen to those not in the Enclave in Autumn's vision after all. He may have thought genocide was too "extreme", but he doesn't see wastelanders as anything more than tools to be exploited and then discarded when they're no longer of any use.

The same can be said of most past civilizations as well. Being alive in an enclave controlled world would still be preferable to being alive in world of pure anarchy.

[Vera Maslar]

There was a toxic waste leak and it has affected their minds. :hehe:

[jodie]

Eden's a computer to him using the modified FEV is just practical for his plans to come to fruitation. Autumn just wants to increase the enclave's power. There goals aren't bad it's there methods to reach those goals that are.

I'd call wiping out all life on the planet outside of the Enclave a pretty unethical goal. Regardless, their methods speak more about them then their goals, anyway. Anyone can say "I want to restore this country to its former glory", but that's inconsequential. What matters is how you go about "restoring this country to its former glory", and the Enclave believes that genocide (mass slaughter in Autumn's case), racism, slavery, and drug trade are the only ways to do that.

The same can be said of most past civilizations as well. Being alive in an enclave controlled world would still be preferable to being alive in world of pure anarchy.

It's not a world of "pure anarchy" though, there's clearly order even on the east coast. There's laws, there's governing figures, it's not like everyone is a raider. In time the east coast would get its own major governing body, one that probably isn't nearly as bad as the Enclave.

[Darlene DIllow]

The BOS are so much better anyways <_<

[Jeff Turner]

I'd call wiping out all life on the planet outside of the Enclave a pretty unethical goal. Regardless, their methods speak more about them then their goals, anyway. Anyone can say "I want to restore this country to its former glory", but that's inconsequential. What matters is how you go about "restoring this country to its former glory", and the Enclave believes that genocide (mass slaughter in Autumn's case), racism, slavery, and drug trade are the only ways to do that.

From a pure science point of view with no morals involved it actually makes a lot of sense that to start civilization anew, mutation must be eliminated and the pure strains of humanity should breed. The problem of course is that only the evil lack any kind of empathy, and the complete lack of empathy is the only thing that would allow that action.

Kind of like how, in a broad sense, it would be good for the planet and good for society if we killed half the people on Earth right now, today. Of course, we could really never, ever do this, as we care about those people's lives.

I hope that doesn't sound psychotic... my point is that it is evil, the enclave is evil, but only in the sense that they look completely past emotion and empathy toward a very scientific goal, with possible, however hidden and misguided, good intentions.

[Music Show]

In F2, I recently had my first real encounter with the Enclave in Navarro (Aside of briefly spying on their weapons exchange with the New Reno mafia) and my impression of them is just as evil as what is presented in Fallout 3. The Enclave was obviously modelled after Nazi Germany both in goals and design, I can't find a more dispicable faction in the entirety of Fallout series (That includes the inbred hillbiliies of Point Lookout), particularly when reading the evolution how the Enclave came to be.

In Fallout 2 I've noticed that the higher ups within the Enclave are downright evil while the grunts are either: confused and clueless or brainwashed and fanatical. Some of the guys running around Navarro seem nice enough, although the fact that they warn me under their breath leads me to think that some may be still in the Enclave more out of fear than anything else...such as the guard outside the commander's quarters who warns me about snooping around the base. Others, such as the patrols that wasted everyone in Vault 13 are completely insane, a bunch of thugs and murderers. The Enclave are pretty much just better equipped Raiders with fascist propaganda.

As to the love for them around these boards, I only ever saw it as a joke more than anything to be taken seriously as expressate said. Many people like to pretend they are part of the bad guys anyway when given the choice in games such as this :shrug:

[Steven Nicholson]

I think Eden was an incarnation of pure evil, but that without him, the Enclave Soldiers and people were probably level-headed, patriotic and with good intentions.

The way you worded your post made me think of something. Eden is the incarnation of Pure Evil. Removed from human emotion, it is merely evil action with the logic required to act on it. Autumn is the incarnation of Human Evil. It can be sidetracked by emotion, and death, and stagnation, but it can be just as if not more Evil, because it can go outside the required logic. I'm not sure if I'm getting my thoughts across properly, but do you get what I'm saying?

[Benji]

The way you worded your post made me think of something. Eden is the incarnation of Pure Evil. Removed from human emotion, it is merely evil action with the logic required to act on it. Autumn is the incarnation of Human Evil. It can be sidetracked by emotion, and death, and stagnation, but it can be just as if not more Evil, because it can go outside the required logic. I'm not sure if I'm getting my thoughts across properly, but do you get what I'm saying?

This goes with what I was attempting to say a few posts up, that pure logic is really a form of evil.

Don't tell Star Trek fans that.

[D IV]

Kind of like how, in a broad sense, it would be good for the planet and good for society if we killed half the people on Earth right now, today. Of course, we could really never, ever do this, as we care about those people's lives.

I hope that doesn't sound psychotic... my point is that it is evil, the enclave is evil, but only in the sense that they look completely past emotion and empathy toward a very scientific goal, with possible, however hidden and misguided, good intentions.

It does sound a tad unplanned, however, as a person with the amount of logic capable of making a plan to better the Earth would take into account that much of civilization as we know it would collapse, as removing half of the entire human population would screw over our workforces world wide, and paranoia would run rampant towards when the next purging would occur, and the remaining humans would care about their own lives a lot less, seeing as how so many could be wiped out without a second's hesitation.

Seeing as how many potentially destructive things are manned by more than half the human population, the now un-controlled ships, vehicles, planes and so forth would crash, killing even more animals, oil tankers simply crashing and spreading oil across the oceans etc.

So, in fact, it would ruin society, and immensely harm the environment if we were to just kill off half of our own global population.

[Jade]

It does sound a tad unplanned, however, as a person with the amount of logic capable of making a plan to better the Earth would take into account that much of civilization as we know it would collapse, as removing half of the entire human population would screw over our workforces world wide, and paranoia would run rampant towards when the next purging would occur, and the remaining humans would care about their own lives a lot less, seeing as how so many could be wiped out without a second's hesitation.

Seeing as how many potentially destructive things are manned by more than half the human population, the now un-controlled ships, vehicles, planes and so forth would crash, killing even more animals, oil tankers simply crashing and spreading oil across the oceans etc.

So, in fact, it would ruin society, and immensely harm the environment if we were to just kill off half of our own global population.

Well, unplanned, yes you are right... I was more speaking of some kind of horrible genocide where the lower rungs are removed for the prosperity of the intellectual and strong... and not while they are mid-flight, as you say.

Really though the point is that the logical idea of removing the lower rungs of society the resource strain they cause is something that, however logical, is perhaps illogical, and certainly not moral. It's odd to think of logic as a subjective thing, but it sort of is in this case at least. As you say, the emotional and societal waves made by such a genocide could easily outweigh the logical benefits of planned "purification" as the Enclave desires. This could be transported into the game, as we can imagine a world where Eden gets his way, but ends up causing more anarchy and a world without order as much or more so than it is at the present time in the game.

[Nicole Kraus]

Well, unplanned, yes you are right... I was more speaking of some kind of horrible genocide where the lower rungs are removed for the prosperity of the intellectual and strong... and not while they are mid-flight, as you say.

Ah, I see. Thought you meant something like a theoretical "POOF! Half the human race is now dead." Rapture-esque situation.

Really though the point is that the logical idea of removing the lower rungs of society the resource strain they cause is something that, however logical, is perhaps illogical, and certainly not moral. It's odd to think of logic as a subjective thing, but it sort of is in this case at least. As you say, the emotional and societal waves made by such a genocide could easily outweigh the logical benefits of planned "purification" as the Enclave desires. This could be transported into the game, as we can imagine a world where Eden gets his way, but ends up causing more anarchy and a world without order as much or more so than it is at the present time in the game.

[Chrissie Pillinger]

The Dev screw up the perspective of the Brotherhood. They are not ya "knights in shining armor" or "good guys" in the previous one.

Uh, I might be mistaken since I haven't played the other games, but isn't the reason the Outcast BOS split from the CW BOS was because Lyon became the "knights in shining armor"? And so the Outcasts has the ideals of the BOS in the West Coast, while the CW BOS were suppose to be going against the BOS doctrine? So doesn't that mean the devs are paying attention to the lore?

[Naomi Ward]

Also why do some people on these forums seem to think they are actually in the enclave?

[Carolyne Bolt]

Also why do some people on these forums seem to think they are actually in the enclave?

It's called roleplaying. Some people do it, I don't.

[Isaac Saetern]

Hm, the BOS were (in the previous Fallouts) more like "Neutrals in dusty armor" :hehe:

i remember there armor always being spotless.

[Allison Sizemore]

I'd call wiping out all life on the planet outside of the Enclave a pretty unethical goal. Regardless, their methods speak more about them then their goals, anyway. Anyone can say "I want to restore this country to its former glory", but that's inconsequential. What matters is how you go about "restoring this country to its former glory", and the Enclave believes that genocide (mass slaughter in Autumn's case), racism, slavery, and drug trade are the only ways to do that.

That's why I said there methods are bad. The enclave's methods are not different from older civilizations (let's forget Nazi Germany for a moment) many older civilizations used slavery, were racist and committed genocide or at least tried and traded anything that made them coin regardless if it was moral or not. Also Stinging Velvet hit the nail on the head with his post with it being more practical to start over fresh. That's what Eden was doing being practical and making things easier. Autumn on the other hand thinks its overkill and wants to use people to increase the enclave's power. Both do want to restore the country but the problem is it's at any cost unfortunately. Personally I don't know if I'd call them evil. Misguided yes but pure evil?

It's not a world of "pure anarchy" though, there's clearly order even on the east coast. There's laws, there's governing figures, it's not like everyone is a raider. In time the east coast would get its own major governing body, one that probably isn't nearly as bad as the Enclave.

What Laws and governing figures are there exactly? Elder Lyons just runs the BoS, Rivet City's council is more like a business setup then a government body. Megaton has one guy two robots and some dude overlooking the town with a hunting rifle. As far as an actual police force goes you got the regulators who send three man teams or one man only missions and they end up getting wasted the majority of the time. They have no standing military except for Talon Company would burn every settlement to the ground if the job paid well.

The land might not be pure anarchy but it's nowhere near being a peaceful, law abiding and united either which is quite pathetic really considering it's been 200 years after the war.

[Ashley Hill]

I completely agree with the Enclaves motives no matter anyones speculation. If I were in F3 situation, I would accept the genetic compliance test. Most people pass the test if they don't have rads on them, if they don't have a mutation *sixth toe, extra limb or something [censored] up*. And you get a ration of purified water. I would probally hide in a abandoned house until I find an Enclave outpost. Then I would take the test, take meh some water, and tune in onto their radio. Although Eden is a seriously screwed up computer, Autumn is straight (Not a sixual reference) and actually has sympathy towards the wastelanders, not the mutated ones though. And who cannot agree, would I want my child to grow up in a nightmarish world where the only thing next to order is a bunch of power armored boyscouts who run on a feudal system that failed centuries ago? And where rampant mutants such as ghouls would grow to hate us and try to exterminate us as well? (roy phillips is a perfect example)

No, the Enclaves methods and motives are perfectly appropriate for the situation they are facing. Logic is only another way to say the best way it should be handled in the common interest of a group that seems Rational. Rationality is the word that is clouded by Logic. And for that I completley support the enclave. If I ever did get a mutation, either its remove it with a surgical laser, a bullet to the head, or tons of rad-away.

[Chase McAbee]

Well, on the West Coast you have the NCR.

Most people pass the test if they don't have rads on them, if they don't have a mutation *sixth toe, extra limb or something [censored] up*. And you get a ration of purified water.

All non-Vault, non-Enclave people are impure.

[carley moss]

Well, on the West Coast you have the NCR.



All non-Vault, non-Enclave people are impure.

Nu uh. See, the West coast was definately full of mutants, airborne FEV thanks to the Masters stupid plan contaminated most of the population. Vault city is probally the only group the Enclave actually left alone, along with the West coast BOS. IF we took a trip down memory lane, all the way to the East coast, you can see that no FEV facility has ever released Airborne FEV, especially since it is a strain that is spread through green goop. And I doubt green goop can evaporate and infect you then turn into goop again. Logic , cough, rationality, beats you.

[Brittany Abner]

Well, on the West Coast you have the NCR.

True but there's no real form of government on the east coast though.

All non-Vault, non-Enclave people are impure.

That's correct however Autumn doesn't want to kill them though seeing as how he thinks they'll be useful.

[Helen Quill]

Nu uh. See, the West coast was definately full of mutants, airborne FEV thanks to the Masters stupid plan contaminated most of the population. Vault city is probally the only group the Enclave actually left alone, along with the West coast BOS. IF we took a trip down memory lane, all the way to the East coast, you can see that no FEV facility has ever released Airborne FEV, especially since it is a strain that is spread through green goop. And I doubt green goop can evaporate and infect you then turn into goop again. Logic , cough, rationality, beats you.

Actually...

Mutations occur normally through altering of your DNA. Radiation has a bad habit of altering one's DNA. Usually it results in cancer, but sometimes you're born with a sixth toe or a lump that may or may not be your twin sibling.

The Vault 101 recon party specifically stated that background radiation is well above safe levels. That means above a handful of rad exposer per year. All water sources and food in and around DC are irradiated, with the exception of purified water/Aqua Pura (if you don't dump the modfied FEV into it.) Every day you gain a good chunk of your "yearly exposure limit" of radiation.

The Enclave and Vault Personnel have air-scrubbers and water filters that take care of this radiation. Nobody else does. The radiation is so prevelant, that the soil itself for at least a few hundred feet down is still irradiated, contaminating underground water. Which spreads this radiation even further around.

[Danielle Brown]

Hopefully, they won't appear in future games. Same for the BoS.

You can't know how happy I am to see someone else (besides myself) posting this.

Finally, someone else on this forum who may truly be another old-school, die-hard Fallout fan.

[Isabell Hoffmann]

You can't know how happy I am to see someone else (besides myself) posting this.

Finally, someone else on this forum who may truly be another old-school, die-hard Fallout fan.

A lot of people have said that. More about the enclave than the BoS, but about both for sure...

[Alex Blacke]

Uh, I might be mistaken since I haven't played the other games, but isn't the reason the Outcast BOS split from the CW BOS was because Lyon became the "knights in shining armor"? And so the Outcasts has the ideals of the BOS in the West Coast, while the CW BOS were suppose to be going against the BOS doctrine? So doesn't that mean the devs are paying attention to the lore?

They split, but what I am saying is BOS were never those "knights in shining armor" faction to begin with.

[Darren Chandler]

You can't know how happy I am to see someone else (besides myself) posting this.

Finally, someone else on this forum who may truly be another old-school, die-hard Fallout fan.

Believe it or not, there are old-school, die-hard Fallout fans who disagree with you and Ausir. Wanting to no longer see the BoS and/or Enclave does not validate your enjoyment of this series. It merely is an opinion that came from that enjoyment.