[Rachel Briere]

Sure, but funny thing is, there are more people among those who started with FO3 that for some reason consider both the BoS and the Enclave essential to the Fallout series than among "old-school" fans, even though their inclusion in FO3 was supposedly meant to please the old-schoolers.

[Lisa Robb]

Believe it or not, there are old-school, die-hard Fallout fans who disagree with you and Ausir.

I'm sure there are, but I consider their viewpoint to be narrow-minded, annoyingly conservative and rather stupid. The desire to be comforted by familiar old tropes time and again is very aggravating to me, because they're played-out and boring. Also, continually rehashing and bastardizing the Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave is an insult to their memory. They've been done, and they should be left to rest in peace. Resurrecting their corpses to serve as mascots in every Fallout game is unacceptable.

This is the same sort of viewpoint that has caused Marmaduke, Peanuts and Garfield to remain in the comics pages of American newspapers for 30-50 years each, despite the fact that they became unfunny and started rehashing old material 20-30 years ago. People want to see their same old friends day after week after month after year after decade, and that flies in the face of everything Fallout represents.

Sure, but funny thing is, there are more people among those who started with FO3 that for some reason consider both the BoS and the Enclave essential to the Fallout series than among "old-school" fans, even though their inclusion in FO3 was supposedly meant to please the old-schoolers.

Exactly.

If I were to start a poll on a certain well known Fallout fan site, asking whether or not the BoS and Enclave should continue to be used in Fallout sequels... well, I'd be banned for trying to start a conversation about what is considered a modern-day abomination of the franchise, but theoretically 90%+ of voters would vote to let the BoS and Enclave rest in peace, and come up with something original next time.

[Czar Kahchi]

Both needed to not have been included in FO3. And I started out with FO3. I just don't think taking organizations from the past games, making bastardized versions of them to play in your own little Good Vs. Evil version of Fallout, and then making them both unimpressive, pathetic, and generally [censored]s in the beginning.

[Sian Ennis]

I wouldn't actually mind if the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel were just included in Fallout 3. But they were made the focus of the game again. They could have done what Fallout 2 did instead - it includes the Brotherhood and the remants of the Master's Army, but did not make them the focus of the main story.

Not to mention being forced to join the Brotherhood again, like in FOT and FOBOS, and unlike FO1 and 2, where you could join, but didn't have to.

[Budgie]

I like the Enclave....when they're dead.

By the way, I'm new to the Fallout series..I got Fallout 3 when it came out...I like it, but it be nice to have something new in the next game, instead of seeing the Enclave and the BoS again. A series like this should have something fresh to look forward to. ^_^

[Lil Miss]

I wouldn't actually mind if the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel were just included in Fallout 3. But they were made the focus of the game again. They could have done what Fallout 2 did instead - it includes the Brotherhood and the remants of the Master's Army, but did not make them the focus of the main story.

I agree. Black Isle had it right: Once a faction or group has been the focus of a previous game, you can perhaps leave them in for another sequel or two, but not as major elements. Also, it's worth noting that many old-school fans consider Fallout 2 to be a developer-made "total conversion mod," and this seems accurate in many respects. The concept art for Van Buren suggests that Black Isle had something almost completely different in mind for the third game in the series.

Vaults, Vault-Tec, ghouls, power armor, and Vault Boy (as a mascot) are the only elements that should remain constant throughout the series, I think, and even then, the game need not revolve around vaults. Super Mutants, the Enclave, and the Brotherhood may not exist at all in some parts of the country. In fact, Bethesda had to come up with "excuses" for why the Enclave and the Super Mutants all magically moved across the entire country. The Master and President Richardson both lived in California, so the amount of fudging needed to explain how both factions ended up in Washinton, D.C. is almost beyond belief.

[Kieren Thomson]

i remember there armor always being spotless.

Yeah, well, that's due to the low resolution sprites. Go look at the talking heads of Cabbot and Rhombus, it's not the most well-taken-care-of equipment on their persons.

EDIT: Well, maybe not Rhombus. Remember, he has a Power Armor fetish. :ahhh:

[lauren cleaves]

Nu uh. See, the West coast was definately full of mutants, airborne FEV thanks to the Masters stupid plan contaminated most of the population. Vault city is probally the only group the Enclave actually left alone, along with the West coast BOS. IF we took a trip down memory lane, all the way to the East coast, you can see that no FEV facility has ever released Airborne FEV, especially since it is a strain that is spread through green goop. And I doubt green goop can evaporate and infect you then turn into goop again. Logic , cough, rationality, beats you.

If you were born in the wasteland you're a mutant to the Enclave, period.

[Hairul Hafis]

Sure, but funny thing is, there are more people among those who started with FO3 that for some reason consider both the BoS and the Enclave essential to the Fallout series than among "old-school" fans, even though their inclusion in FO3 was supposedly meant to please the old-schoolers.

That's because Fallout 3 is a generic "good vs. evil" game and the two factions are essential to its shell of a plot. Frankly I thought the Enclave were cool, but the massive fanboyism from these Fallout 3 fans who haven't even played the past games is incredibly annoying.

I, for one, didn't care much for Frank Horrigan. The Master could kick his butt. :foodndrink:

[Stephanie Nieves]

I wouldn't actually mind if the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel were just included in Fallout 3. But they were made the focus of the game again. They could have done what Fallout 2 did instead - it includes the Brotherhood and the remants of the Master's Army, but did not make them the focus of the main story.

Not to mention being forced to join the Brotherhood again, like in FOT and FOBOS, and unlike FO1 and 2, where you could join, but didn't have to.

I agree with everything you and Vainglorious have said, and this part rings especially true. Mainly I like seeing the game connected in some way, for events of one to have an impact on the other, or be mentioned... for this reason I would like to see the Enclave and BoS be mentioned or even seen again, in some capacity, similar to how the BoS is seen in FO2.

A traveling BoS squad, passing through the area... an Enclave Colonel, lost without his army, wasting his days away in a cabin in the desert... stuff like that. The Pitt did what I would like to see in FO4, it mentioned the BoS traveling through and killing everything in their path 25 years before, and had an ex-BoS in the game, but the BoS had no obvious gameplay presence... that was perfect.

I think with the Enclave our wish could easily come true... I don't see Bethesda using the same enemy every game, having to come up with a new President who is unique every game (this time it's a woman!) and explain where they got new forces and such... it seems forced, even for Bethesda. Unfortunately I DO think the BoS will have continued and strong presence in every game, for a few reasons...

1. Every game has had them.
2. They are used massively in the marketing and imagery for the game.
3. Even Black Isle and the spin-offs continued to focus on them, barring perhaps FO2, and Fallout could be looked at by many newer or even older fans as a BoS story.

I just hope they are not the main focus of the game next time, is all.

[nath]

Sure, but funny thing is, there are more people among those who started with FO3 that for some reason consider both the BoS and the Enclave essential to the Fallout series than among "old-school" fans, even though their inclusion in FO3 was supposedly meant to please the old-schoolers.

Yeah, it's funny that the Commonwealth was one of the few things old-school fans generally liked in F3. Heh, a bit of self confidence would have gone a long way for Bethesda.

If I were to start a poll on a certain well known Fallout fan site, asking whether or not the BoS and Enclave should continue to be used in Fallout sequels... well, I'd be banned for trying to start a conversation about what is considered a modern-day abomination of the franchise, but theoretically 90%+ of voters would vote to let the BoS and Enclave rest in peace, and come up with something original next time.

Couldn't agree more. As long as they don't come up with something like Caesar's Legion it should be fine.

[BlackaneseB]

2. They are used massively in the marketing and imagery for the game.

In my opinion, it's actually the T-51b Powered Infantry Armor that is omnipresent in Fallout imagery, and not (necessarily) the Brotherhood itself.

Unfortunately, the Brotherhood of Steel has become inextricably associated with Power Armor, even though many of the Enclave residents in Fallout 2 can also be seen wearing T-51b, not exclusively the Advanced Power Armor. Every spin-off Fallout game has featured the Brotherhood of Steel. In the case of Fallout: Tactics, this is mainly because the Brotherhood makes the most sense for that sort of thing. This is also the case when it comes to the console abomination which shall not be named.

I fervently hope they'll quit putting the Brotherhood in every game... but you're quite correct, it's probably too late now.

Sigh.

[Krista Belle Davis]

1. Every game has had them.

But they weren't a big part of the main plot in FO2 and in the canceled Van Buren. They started to be a mandatory part of the main plot only in FOT.

2. They are used massively in the marketing and imagery for the game.

If anything is really iconic, it's the power armor, not the Brotherhood or the Enclave themselves.

3. Even Black Isle and the spin-offs continued to focus on them, barring perhaps FO2, and Fallout could be looked at by many newer or even older fans as a BoS story.

Before FOT, no Fallout game really *focused* on the BoS. You can finish FO1 without even visiting the BoS.

I fervently hope they'll quit putting the Brotherhood in every game... but you're quite correct, it's probably too late now.

Maybe there's some hope in New Vegas.

[Scotties Hottie]

Maybe there's some hope in New Vegas.

You're right, there is... because Feargus Urquhart and Chris Avellone might be in on the project.

I have complete faith in those two when it comes to steering the Fallout franchise in a good direction.

Now if only they had Tim Cain as well, I'd be extremely excited.

[brandon frier]

You're right, there is... because Feargus Urquhart and Chris Avellone might be in on the project.

As far as I know, they won't be on the design team as such, but they'll still have a lot of input as founders and bosses of Obsidian.

The actual lead designer is J.E. Sawyer, who was also responsible, together with Chris Avellone, for much of Van Buren.

[W E I R D]

As far as I know, they won't be on the design team as such, but they'll still have a lot of input as founders and bosses of Obsidian.

Yeah, I'm hoping that even if they aren't "on the project" as such, they will still provide the oversight needed to make for a smashing Fallout game.

[Keeley Stevens]

Why do these always go off topic.

[Brad Johnson]

If you were born in the wasteland you're a mutant to the Enclave, period.

Boo hoo. You almost got me.

Stiggs, Anna holt ring a bell?

And don't tell me they were going to kill them. First of all Stiggs repairs their bots, why not let him live, and anna, she gave them all they needed to know about project purity, the only thing missing was the password, and the didn't kill her.

You just got blammo'ed

[Amiee Kent]

Yes, people in the Enclave disagree on whether all mutants should be exterminated, or whether at least the useful ones can be kept for some purposes. Doesn't mean they would be considered actual Enclave citizens.

[Stacy Hope]

Yes, people in the Enclave disagree on whether all mutants should be exterminated, or whether at least the useful ones can be kept for some purposes. Doesn't mean they would be considered actual Enclave citizens.

Yes, of course. But at the same time, Colonel Autumn, with his sympathy, and his human consience would direct him to accept pure humans into the Enclave. (Vault refugees, genetically pure wastelanders, just not the the magical yellow blow that talks on your forehead kind of thing.

[Sabrina Steige]

In my opinion, it's actually the T-51b Powered Infantry Armor that is omnipresent in Fallout imagery, and not (necessarily) the Brotherhood itself.

Unfortunately, the Brotherhood of Steel has become inextricably associated with Power Armor

You answered your own point there... I think most lore hounds and fans of the original would consider it obvious that the armor and the BoS are two different things, but the series has now built a media and marketing association of the two to the point it would be hard to market or talk about FO4 without it.

I could be very wrong though, New Vegas could have limited or no BoS presence and market itself on other factors... that would make me happy... I just feel like it won't be the case, unfortunately.

I think we're safe with the enclave though.

[Alkira rose Nankivell]

Boo hoo. You almost got me.

Stiggs, Anna holt ring a bell?

And don't tell me they were going to kill them. First of all Stiggs repairs their bots, why not let him live, and anna, she gave them all they needed to know about project purity, the only thing missing was the password, and the didn't kill her.

You just got blammo'ed

Your logic is severely flawed. The poster you're attacking didn't claim that the Enclave wouldn't use mutants to further their goals from time to time; he claimed that the Enclave considers anyone born in the wasteland a mutant, which is true.

As Aesir points out, the Enclave disagrees internally about whether to slaughter all mutants on sight or to put some of them to good use, but the fact that the Enclave may not kill a wastelander has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether the Enclave considers said wastelander to be a mutant.

The Enclave does not use its technology to test wastelanders for genetic purity. If you were not born inside of an Enclave base or facility to Enclave parents, you're a mutant in the eyes of the Enclave. Period. There is no debate about this.

[Jeffrey Lawson]

Your logic is severely flawed. The poster you're attacking didn't claim that the Enclave wouldn't use mutants to further their goals from time to time; he claimed that the Enclave considers anyone born in the wasteland a mutant, which is true.

As Aesir points out, the Enclave disagrees internally about whether to slaughter all mutants on sight or to put some of them to good use, but the fact that the Enclave may not kill a wastelander has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether the Enclave considers said wastelander to be a mutant.

The Enclave does not use its technology to test wastelanders for genetic purity. If you were not born inside of an Enclave base or facility to Enclave parents, you're a mutant in the eyes of the Enclave. Period. There is no debate about this.

My logic only severly sounds flawed because you haven't heard the whole story. First of all, go to a terminal in an Enclave camp in F3. Check out the main directive behind their presence in the area. Genetic compliance tests. The Enclave in F2! were the ones who considered everyone a mutant soley because of the Airborne FEV, which was easy to detect considering the Oil rig had far more advanced tech than you AND I could imagine. IF we take a trip to funky town all the way in the east coast, we have evidence that the FEV strain that creates the retarded version of the super mutant is soley through magical green goop. And the Enclave seem to have taken trips outside the wasteland in power armor, and I even found Brahmin steak in their pockets. Does that prove enough to say that F2 and F3 version of the Enclave had different views on their mutant policy and identification?

[Jeremy Kenney]

My logic only severly sounds flawed because you haven't heard the whole story. First of all, go to a terminal in an Enclave camp in F3. Check out the main directive behind their presence in the area. Genetic compliance tests. The Enclave in F2! were the ones who considered everyone a mutant soley because of the Airborne FEV, which was easy to detect considering the Oil rig had far more advanced tech than you AND I could imagine. IF we take a trip to funky town all the way in the east coast, we have evidence that the FEV strain that creates the retarded version of the super mutant is soley through magical green goop. And the Enclave seem to have taken trips outside the wasteland in power armor, and I even found Brahmin steak in their pockets. Does that prove enough to say that F2 and F3 version of the Enclave had different views on their mutant policy and identification?

None of this is revelant. It's all rambling rigmarole that amounts to very little. Allow me to rephrase: Until the Enclave commits genocide against nearly everyone in the wasteland with the modified FEV virus, all wastelanders are considered to mutants in a sort of "better safe than sorry" policy. They aren't going to bother looking for pure humans with "genetic testing" considering that their master plan will sort that out for them. Again, until the modified FEV is allowed to do its work, the Enclave considers all non-Enclave to be mutants.

The goal of the Enclave in both Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 was practically identical. Here are three excerpts from the Vault Wikia:

Richardson's FEV strain

The Enclave, being led by President dike Richardson, developed their own version of the virus. It was an airborne modification that was planned to be spread by vertibirds. Created by the scientists led by Dr. Charles Curling, this virus was designed to kill all the "mutant" inhabitants of the United States.

Eden's FEV strain

When the Enclave relocated to the Capital Wasteland, the survivors of the Oil Rig destruction probably brought a Richardson's modified FEV sample with them. Presedent John Henry Eden personally remastered the virus, making it available to be added into water directly. The president planned to use it to continue Richardson's plan, this time using Project Purity.

...
President John Henry Eden attempted to convince the Lone Wanderer to use a modified form of FEV to use in the activation of the purifier, which was created to kill all forms of life with any degree of mutation. Note that if this crime of humanity is done then you will find that the wastes are devoid of those that had hoped to find new beginnings in the water of the Potomac. You will receive tainted purified waters and can give these to beggars to lose karma and kill them.

---------------------------------------------------------

Considering that 99%+ of wastelanders have at least a small taint of mutation due to radiation and other factors, for all intents and purposes, all wastelanders are regarded as mutants.

The fact that there's a less-than-1% exception out there doesn't invalidate the Enclave's viewpoint.

[Ally Chimienti]

None of this is revelant. It's all rambling rigmarole that amounts to very little. Allow me to rephrase: Until the Enclave commits genocide against nearly everyone in the wasteland with the modified FEV virus, all wastelanders are considered to mutants in a sort of "better safe than sorry" policy. They aren't going to bother looking for pure humans with "genetic testing" considering that their master plan will sort that out for them. Again, until the modified FEV is allowed to do its work, the Enclave considers all non-Enclave to be mutants.

The goal of the Enclave in both Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 was practically identical. Here are three excerpts from the Vault Wikia:

Richardson's FEV strain

The Enclave, being led by President dike Richardson, developed their own version of the virus. It was an airborne modification that was planned to be spread by vertibirds. Created by the scientists led by Dr. Charles Curling, this virus was designed to kill all the "mutant" inhabitants of the United States.

Eden's FEV strain

When the Enclave relocated to the Capital Wasteland, the survivors of the Oil Rig destruction probably brought a Richardson's modified FEV sample with them. Presedent John Henry Eden personally remastered the virus, making it available to be added into water directly. The president planned to use it to continue Richardson's plan, this time using Project Purity.

...
President John Henry Eden attempted to convince the Lone Wanderer to use a modified form of FEV to use in the activation of the purifier, which was created to kill all forms of life with any degree of mutation. Note that if this crime of humanity is done then you will find that the wastes are devoid of those that had hoped to find new beginnings in the water of the Potomac. You will receive tainted purified waters and can give these to beggars to lose karma and kill them.

---------------------------------------------------------

Considering that 99%+ of wastelanders have at least a small taint of mutation due to radiation and other factors, for all intents and purposes, all wastelanders are regarded as mutants.

The fact that there's a less-than-1% exception out there doesn't invalidate the Enclave's viewpoint.

You got me there. But then why even maintain those outposts? Why make up an entire Genetic test if the plan would be put up in action by Eden. Why waste the resources when you could simply wait for the opportunity and nab the lone wanderer. OR maybe, it was a set-up by Eden to keep Colonel Autumn from knowing his true purposes.

But you forgot something. I said that the above about the Enclave accepting pure wastelanders would be under Colonel Autumns command. Then that makes SENSE. OMG, I never realised it. But Eden set up Colonel Autumn and kept his plans under the radar by asking Autumn to expand into the wastes and keep him busy with field operations while Eden reversed engineered the FEV Richardson had so he could await the moment the Colonel captures the LW and use him in his plan to purify the wastes. All that while the Colonel was in a deluded campaign of propaganda and expansion. By god, I've got it!!!