[Melanie Steinberg]

You got me there. But then why even maintain those outposts? Why make up an entire Genetic test if the plan would be put up in action by Eden. Why waste the resources when you could simply wait for the opportunity and nab the lone wanderer. OR maybe, it was a set-up by Eden to keep Colonel Autumn from knowing his true purposes.

But you forgot something. I said that the above about the Enclave accepting pure wastelanders would be under Colonel Autumns command. Then that makes SENSE. OMG, I never realised it. But Eden set up Colonel Autumn and kept his plans under the radar by asking Autumn to expand into the wastes and keep him busy with field operations while Eden reversed engineered the FEV Richardson had so he could await the moment the Colonel captures the LW and use him in his plan to purify the wastes. All that while the Colonel was in a deluded campaign of propaganda and expansion. By god, I've got it!!!

That sounds... uh, mostly correct.

Colonel Autumn turned out to be against the genocidal modified FEV plan, but that makes him an exception in the Enclave, not the rule... a renegade, if you will. The Nazi Party is a real-world historical group which the Enclave is loosely based upon, and although not every single Nazi necessarily agreed with Hitler's goals (a few tried to assassinate him, and some secretly helped Jews escape persecution [Schindler's List]), nevertheless the party as a whole was still attempting to commit genocide against an ethnic group.

[Kayla Oatney]

The Enclave is the lesser of two evils...after all, who wants to be ruled by the Brotherhood of Steel.

If anything though, I want to see more people cheering on the NCR, now that's the way the wasteland should be run!

[Johnny]

The Enclave is the lesser of two evils...after all, who wants to be ruled by the Brotherhood of Steel.

See, this is the problem I have with new fans of the series. I'm sorry, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


1.) The Enclave is the lesser of two evils? Their leader's goal has always been to commit mass genocide against sentient beings. I guess that's a moral gray area to some people?

2.) The Brotherhood of Steel doesn't want to rule anything. They mostly want to be left to their own devices, even when taking Bethesda's F3 bastardization into account.


God, if Tim Cain were dead, he'd be rolling over in his grave. Seriously.

[kyle pinchen]

The Enclave is the lesser of two evils...after all, who wants to be ruled by the Brotherhood of Steel.

If anything though, I want to see more people cheering on the NCR, now that's the way the wasteland should be run!

Depends which BoS we're talking about. I imagine the sanctified knights in the East might not be too bad. Both of them seem kind of xenophobic, but at least the BoS wouldn't off you just because you're 'unclean'. NCR is the best way though, the survivors pulling themselves up and reorganizing.

[Rudy Paint fingers]

See, this is the problem I have with new fans of the series. I'm sorry, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


1.) The Enclave is the lesser of two evils? Their leader's goal has always been to commit mass genocide against sentient beings. I guess that's a moral gray area to some people?

2.) The Brotherhood of Steel doesn't want to rule anything. They mostly want to be left to their own devices, even when taking Bethesda's F3 bastardization into account.


God, if Tim Cain were dead, he'd be rolling over in his grave. Seriously.

You obviosuly don't know RAmerica, he consistantly voices his dislike of Fallout 3 so he isn't a new fan of the series at all. He simply views the Enclave differently than you I suppose :shrug:

I agree with Malcador btw, the NCR is the best new government to come out of the wastelands so far and East Coast BoS are probably nifty to have around to lend a hand as well, don't really see them as wanting to rule anything same as the West Coast they are only more proactive LOL

[des lynam]

You obviosuly don't know RAmerica, he spends his days around here trash talking Fallout 3 so he isn't a new fan of the series at all

That's an odd statement to make, heh.

[Hairul Hafis]

You can't know how happy I am to see someone else (besides myself) posting this.

Finally, someone else on this forum who may truly be another old-school, die-hard Fallout fan.

I thought the Enclave were a major part of the previous games? They certainly were in Fallout 2. Hell they MADE the game for me...

[Charity Hughes]

They were only in Fallout 2. They were defeated. And we didn't want them to reappear with basically the same plan the whole continent away in Fallout 3, but wanted a new, original villain for each game. Just like the Master's Army wasn't the villain in FO2 again (although it was in Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel).

[Shiarra Curtis]

That's an odd statement to make, heh.

I re-edited the statement. However most of the posts I have seen he is either affirming how horrible a game Fallout 3 is or how Bethesda ruined Fallout. My point was merely to inform Vainglorious that he is not a new fan as you vets refer to us as evidenced by his extreme dislike of Fallout 3, but simply someone who is a vet of the originals who views the Enclave in a different manner as Vainglorious.

No offense intended.

I doubt the Enclave will form any kind of important role in future games now anyway, 2 games featuring them as the principal antagonists is more than enough.

[Gavin boyce]

hmmm long read... enclave grey... not evil.... ehhhh WHAT?

Even when they only want the pure humans to rule the world and kill any form of mutation...
I give 1 simple example.... watch the intro movie of fallout 2..... even killing the only persons they want to survive..... thats not morally grey.... thats evil..
not even lawful-evil more like chaotic evil.....

they kidnap the tribe to test on, killing pure humans in the process... (the enclave concidered the tribals pure human that is, if i'm correct)

And to go off-topic again:

yeah I would like the next game to be without enclave and bos. as more people stated already.. Dont mind running in to 1 or 2 but just not letting the story evolve around them.

and a quick edit: I love Fallout 3. But nothing is perfect.

[asako]

I re-edited the statement. However most of the posts I have seen he is either affirming how horrible a game Fallout 3 is or how Bethesda ruined Fallout. My point was merely to inform Vainglorious that he is not a new fan as you vets refer to us as evidenced by his extreme dislike of Fallout 3, but simply someone who is a vet of the originals who views the Enclave in a different manner as Vainglorious.

No offense intended.

I doubt the Enclave will form any kind of important role in future games now anyway, 2 games featuring them as the principal antagonists is more than enough.

Well, it's possible for a new fan to bash Fallout 3 and extol the original games as being much better, despite the fact that they're new to the series or perhaps haven't even played Fallout or Fallout 2 at all.

Ignorance (or lack of intimate knowledge) about the events and organizations surrounding Fallout and Fallout 2 means you are not a hardcoe fan of the series. I have played Fallout and Fallout 2 through more than a dozen times each since 1997, so I can IMMEDIATELY recognize when someone doesn't have a complete grasp of Fallout history.

[Lauren Graves]

For any of those that may be confused, I'm not a "New Fan", I played the originals when they came out, and was EXTREMELY disappointed with the product that was Fallout 3.

[Elle H]

For any of those that may be confused, I'm not a "New Fan", I played the originals when they came out, and was EXTREMELY disappointed with the product that was Fallout 3.

Then why are you characterizing the unarguably oppressive, genocidal Enclave as being the "lesser evil" in comparison to the Brotherhood ? in the context of being "ruled" by one or the other, which makes absolutely no sense, given that the Brotherhood is insular and has never attempted to rule anything?

Can you see why I have a hard time believing you're familiar with Fallout canon? Your statements run counter to some very fundamental and defining aspects of both the Enclave and the Brotherhood.

May I ask you to explain the reasoning behind these statements? Because I clearly don't get it.

[Tanya]

He is indeed an old-school fan, but he's also an ultra-patriotic American.

[Jimmie Allen]

The Enclave is the last, best hope for America. The blood spilled from our troops are pure, our cause is right, and our motives are just.

We for so that liberty may live.

[Trish]

The Enclave is the only way the human race can be saved. Do you want more people to become mutants and for those swamp lurkers to go on with their sick inbreeding? With the new race that could be created we will have a better America.

[Nicola]

Oh, I see, this has somehow turned into a role-playing thread.

I thought I was in the midst of a completely objective discussion, in which a non-sociopathic person wouldn't spin-doctor the Enclave's goal of committing mass genocide against sentient beings.

I still don't understand where this "ruled by the Brotherhood" thing is coming from, but obviously we've moved into the Twilight Zone, so....

[Tessa Mullins]

Oh, I see, this has somehow turned into a role-playing thread.

Kind of pathetic, and spammy in a way, don't ya think? But I am pretty sure they think otherwise if the real deal exist. I bet them as dead or servant til useless and dispose of.

Also, what ya mean "ruled by the Brotherhood"?

[Steven Nicholson]

Also, what ya mean "ruled by the Brotherhood"?

I'm referring to what RAmerica posted:

The Enclave is the lesser of two evils...after all, who wants to be ruled by the Brotherhood of Steel.

...Citing the Enclave (genocide in the name of patriotism and racial purity) as the "lesser of two evils."

Presumably, the Brotherhood is somehow the "greater of two evils." How this is possible when they 1.) keep to themselves and 2.) aren't trying to exterminate millions of sentient beings is beyond my comprehension. Also, the Brotherhood has never tried to "rule" or "take over" anything.

From a purely objective point of view, what EAmerica said is complete hogwash unless he's role-playing right here in the thread. Why Aesir (a moderator at No Mutants Allowed) is defending him when RAmerica's statements run contrary to how Fallout 2's developers clearly envisioned the Enclave and the Brotherhood (i.e., mass murder of all mutants would give you a whopping negative Karma hit, and the brotherhood is an insular, secretive, neutral group) is also beyond my comprehension.

The only explanation for these grossly inaccurate opinions of the two factions is that RAmerica (and others) are role-playing their Fallout alter-egos right here in this thread.

And it should be pretty obvious why that confuses me, since I thought we were having an objective discussion.

[Adriana Lenzo]

The only explanation for these grossly inaccurate opinions of the two factions is that RAmerica (and others) are role-playing their Fallout alter-egos right here in this thread.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPAnts

Introduce an iconic series like Fallout to a modern generation of gamers and they will find SOMEBODY to fall totally in love with, no matter how evil.

[Lyndsey Bird]

He might have been saying they're the lesser of two evils with regards to something other than the Brotherhood. Frankly, I'd not want a bunch of xenophobic technocrats ruling me (even if they're gleaming white knights) if they would, heh.

[Stay-C]

Frankly, I'd not want a bunch of xenophobic technocrats ruling me (even if they're gleaming white knights) if they would, heh.

Steel Plague from Bad Ending of Fallout 1 comes into mind.

[Terry]

I like the Enclave, without the Enclave the Main Quest wouldn't be fun and well... let's face it, they have great armor and weapons. ^_^

[Lizzie]

I like the Enclave, without the Enclave the Main Quest wouldn't be fun and well... let's face it, they have great armor and weapons. ^_^

True that.

[Alycia Leann grace]

He is indeed an old-school fan, but he's also an ultra-patriotic American.

Our senior scholar of Fallout History is absolutely correct!

Also, as per Vainglorious, he is taking this all way too seriously, it's actually a bit frightening. This is just a video game, not a discussion of political or social philosophies, and if your that much into Fallout(that you think that people are "role playing" on the boards, then perhaps you need to give the video game a little rest). Otherwise, just calm down and enjoy Fallout for what it is: ENTERTAINMENT

Also, due the fact that this game, is nothing more than entertainment, individuals have the right to choose to side with anyone this wish. Entertainment, allows individuals to have the freedom to make choices that in reality would be morally and socially reprehensible. With that being said, entertainment is harmless so long as we treat it as what it is: A Fantasy


Now when the lines become so blurred that we begin to engage in a rabid debate about an individual or individuals, then perhaps we need to look inwards and realize that this is JUST A GAME, so enjoy it, comment on it, criticize it, discuss it, but don't let it rule your life, or turn it into a political philosophy.

Remember, there are the off-topic boards on this site for discussing issues that don't relate to Fallout, so let's leave the political philosophizing there!