What's with all the moth symbolism? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:07 pm

Temple of the Ancestor Moths, Fort Buckmoth, Fort Moonmoth, Fort Frostmoth, Fort Firemoth... need I go on? (granted, there's more of this in Morrowind than Oblivion)

Seeing as how the Imperials love their insane dragon god of time, are these moths somehow related to Akatosh's servants, the Jills? Or are they something else?

The Ancestor Moth Monks seem to get their precognitive powers from their moths, which I understand gives them the authority to read the Elder Scrolls... but is that all there is to the Imperial moth-love? Are the various forts in Morrowind simply referring to these ancestor moths, or is there some deeper connection to moths that I'm not aware of?

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:07 pm

No replies on this so far so I'll give it a go... first off, there is not that much information about this - most of mine comes from Pension of the Ancestor Moth and Pocket Guide to the Empire: Cyrodiil.

I always thought that the moth naming of the forts was just based on the ancestor moths, rather than being a sign of a generally moth-obsessed culture. Although of course, we can assume that the presence of the ancestor moth cult, its importance and the fact that it provided exportable ancestor-silk in Cyro-Nordic times would influence the surrounding culture. In that time, the PGE seems to suggest, the moths were just gypsy moths and weren't venerated; that doesn't explain why they would have called it ancestor-silk but maybe it wasn't called that then. In modern times, the Pension says that the silk is still made into clothes as it was then.

The PGE states that "The traditional Nordic pantheon of Eight Divines was replaced by a baroque veneration of ancestor spirits and god-animals, practices encouraged by the mutable-yet-monotheistic doctrines of the Alessian faith. The doctrines eventually codified nearly every aspect of Eastern culture." (I'm guessing from the timeline this is after 1E243? I'm not much good at the history this far back, honestly). This would lay the foundations for an ancestor moth culture, combining both animal worship (of an animal which provided highly prized goods for them in the past) and ancestor worship. The moths are said to carry the fjyron of the ancestor (this is translated in Pension as "will to peace").

By "ancestors" I'm sure they refer to actual human ancestors, not Aedra. This is plausible since we know Dunmer have that kind of ancestor thing going on too and they can definitely summon up ancestor spirits to guard them, so it seems clear that ancestors do have some power.

You mentioned the jills. I don't know too much about Akatosh either, but I looked this up and I think there is something to this. They are said to "mend minutes", and considering the purpose of the Elder Scrolls, it kind of makes sense that this might be obliquely referring to ancestor moths. However, MK himself said that jill is a term for a female dragon, and they would take "suitably draconic forms", so I don't think he had moths in mind.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:48 am

No replies on this so far so I'll give it a go... first off, there is not that much information about this - most of mine comes from Pension of the Ancestor Moth and Pocket Guide to the Empire: Cyrodiil.

I always thought that the moth naming of the forts was just based on the ancestor moths, rather than being a sign of a generally moth-obsessed culture. Although of course, we can assume that the presence of the ancestor moth cult, its importance and the fact that it provided exportable ancestor-silk in Cyro-Nordic times would influence the surrounding culture. In that time, the PGE seems to suggest, the moths were just gypsy moths and weren't venerated; that doesn't explain why they would have called it ancestor-silk but maybe it wasn't called that then. In modern times, the Pension says that the silk is still made into clothes as it was then.

The PGE states that "The traditional Nordic pantheon of Eight Divines was replaced by a baroque veneration of ancestor spirits and god-animals, practices encouraged by the mutable-yet-monotheistic doctrines of the Alessian faith. The doctrines eventually codified nearly every aspect of Eastern culture." (I'm guessing from the timeline this is after 1E243? I'm not much good at the history this far back, honestly). This would lay the foundations for an ancestor moth culture, combining both animal worship (of an animal which provided highly prized goods for them in the past) and ancestor worship. The moths are said to carry the fjyron of the ancestor (this is translated in Pension as "will to peace").

By "ancestors" I'm sure they refer to actual human ancestors, not Aedra. This is plausible since we know Dunmer have that kind of ancestor thing going on too and they can definitely summon up ancestor spirits to guard them, so it seems clear that ancestors do have some power.

You mentioned the jills. I don't know too much about Akatosh either, but I looked this up and I think there is something to this. They are said to "mend minutes", and considering the purpose of the Elder Scrolls, it kind of makes sense that this might be obliquely referring to ancestor moths. However, MK himself said that jill is a term for a female dragon, and they would take "suitably draconic forms", so I don't think he had moths in mind.

Thanks for the reply. You make some pretty interesting points.

And I wasn't aware MK ever put a "face" on the Jills like that. Do you have a link, at all?

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:22 pm

By "ancestors" I'm sure they refer to actual human ancestors, not Aedra. This is plausible since we know Dunmer have that kind of ancestor thing going on too and they can definitely summon up ancestor spirits to guard them, so it seems clear that ancestors do have some power.

Just a picky, but to Mer boundaries between Aedra and ancestors are decidedly vague, Aedra literally means 'our ancestors'.

» Sun May 29, 2011 4:37 am

Oddly, in the book there's moth stuff too.

Spoiler

Since Vuhon seems well read and such, it's little surprise that aside from his microcosmal dreamsleeve he has moth fliers.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:14 pm

Oddly, in the book there's moth stuff too.

Spoiler

Since Vuhon seems well read and such, it's little surprise that aside from his microcosmal dreamsleeve he has moth fliers.

What do you mean by "

Spoiler

moth fliers

"?

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:27 pm

The Imperials love their moths! From the PGtE:

The Cult of the Ancestor-Moth

For long the Cyro-Nordics had exported ancestor-silks to other regions, simple yet exotic shawls woven from the silks of an indigenous gypsy moth and inscribed with the requisite genealogy of its buyer. Under the Cult, however, ancestor and moth became synonymous: the singing and hymnal spirits of one's forebears are caught in a special silk-gathering ritual, the resource of which is used to create any manner of vestment or costume. The swishing of this material during normal movement reproduces the resplendent ancestral chorus contained therein-it quickly became a sacred custom among the early Nibenese, which has persisted to the present day. Monks of the higher orders of the Cult of the Ancestor-Moth are able to forego the magical ritual needed to enchant this fabric, and, indeed, prefer instead to wear the moths about the neck and face. They are able to attract the ancestor-moths through the application of finely ground bark-dust gathered from the gypsy moth's favorite tree, and through the sub-vocalization of certain mantras. They must chant the mantras constantly to maintain skin contact with the ancestor-moths, a discipline that they endure for the sake of some cosmic balance. When a monk interrupts these mantras, in conversation for example, the moths burst from him in glorious fashion every time he speaks, only to light back upon his skin when he resumes the inaudible chant.

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:02 am

What do you mean by "

Spoiler

moth fliers

"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the

Spoiler

"moths" that were sent down from Umbriel to (if I understood this correctly) "take over" the bodies of those whose souls were taken. This was how the bodies essentially became animated corpses, I believe.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:13 pm

The info about the jills is from http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml

proweler, I know that about the Aedra, but I figured in this case they literally meant ancestors - they are humans after all so the Aedra are not their ancestors, and the moth-silk is inscribed with geneology.

And I'm dying to look at those book spoilers but I will restrain myself... >__<

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:42 pm

It's not all out impossible to assume that the ancestor moth's silk is used to make the Elderscrolls? Couldn't the mystical properties of the silk allow for the magic in the elderscrolls to work, or at least augment it some how, and that might have encouraged all this moth loving sub-culture that seems to be hidden all over the empire. I think having the ability to affect and even alter history would incure some kind of worship, which the moths seem to have gained. That's no to say that the moths can alter time themselves, but the silk might have some interesting magic properties that can grant thhe silk some mystice alteration properties.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:45 pm

proweler, I know that about the Aedra, but I figured in this case they literally meant ancestors - they are humans after all so the Aedra are not their ancestors, and the moth-silk is inscribed with geneology.

Well, there are reasons to assume that the Aedra are the ancestors of man aswell. Only they have forgotten, or the disconnect became to great. The Nords still have a few references to Giants (Gods) being their ancestors.