I pretty much always roll a stealth character. The more ninja-esque I can make my character, the better. I always go for unarmed/melee, I always wear darker clothes, I always sneak as much as possible. I don't just play as an 'assassin', I specifically try to make my character as (clich'e) ninja as possible in ANY game. Even in FPS's, I usually have more melee/knife kills than anyone else. Basically, what I am trying to say, is I would like to speak as an ambassador for anyone who enjoys a Thief category class, and voice my desires on how this game can be made better for players such as myself. Keep in mind I know literally NOTHING about what the stealth system in this game already claims will hold. Also, I will try to reference Fallout: New Vegas as little as possible.

Please keep in mind, while none of this is needed in the game, it's always good to have options. The more options a game has the better it usually does. Look at WoW.

Hand to Hand Combat

Damage - I feel as though their are no real incentives in raising the Hand to Hand skill. It's a weapon that you always have and never degrades, I know, but that isn't really much of a problem. Those are the only real benefits. Once you level up to max, assuming other character level with you, it becomes a big challenge to kill/fatigue anyone using Hand-to-Hand since they all have better armor. Harder still since they all have deadlier weapons to kill you with. I would like for the hand to hand skill to have a higher amount of damage depending on how high you get it. In Fallout New Vegas, you can get through the game entirely unarmed once you get the right perks. It doesn't cheapen the game, it is just another way to play. And having the option to play like so opens up more playstyles/character builds to make more people happier.

Knockout - The ability to knock out your opponent and have them stay unconscious for hours, or at least 45 seconds to 1 minute real time. What if you don't want to kill someone due to fear they might be involved in a quest you don't know exists yet, but you need to mess them up and take their stuff, or just fight back to make a clean escape? With the ability to knock someone out, not just down, this will be easier. Once you knock a person out, you'll go back into hidden status and guards won't chase you down the moment you leave a house. This would make sense because there is no one chasing you, since you knocked them out. I feel that Hand to Hand should heavily damage fatigue, and lightly damage health. Once you knock an enemy out, then hitting them repeatedly (with Hand to Hand or any weapon) would kill them.

"Retractable" Claws - Another feature I would like for Khajiit to have is the ability to switch from claws to closed-palm fists. This way they can knock out enemies, or kill them by using their claws as a weapon that heavily damages health, not just fatigue. I remember a lot of people asking for this on the Oblivion boards back in the day. This could be done by having a permanent hotkey (for khajiit) that you would press to switch which one you want to use, like in Fallout: New Vegas with ammo types. Or even better, just make it a permanent, weightless 'weapon' you have at the top of your weapon inventory. This would free up hotkeys.

I know I am pushing for Khajiit to have more abilities than other races, but remember, options are a good thing, and if you're ready and willing to fight dragons, why not a little ol' kitty with claws?

Legs - I will admit, this will probably not make it into the game, but it'd be cool to see leg attacks incorporated into the game. Maybe by performing a power attack after your enemy recoils and is getting fatigued you could knee them in the face? Yeah, this one sounds like a bit much for them to incorporate, in my opinion, but just mentioning it because I heard you could grab enemies.

Stealth

Search, and then Destroy - I hope guards don't have sonar in this game, and can't instantly home in on wherever you are just because you have committed a crime. It'd be nice to see them have to search for you, and give up looking if they can't find you after a while.

Dead Bodies - I'd also like to see something in terms of having to hide bodies. Perhaps a more dynamic patrol pattern by NPC's would warrant this? Like for instance, if you are exploring a dungeon, and you kill an enemy, when another enemy sees the dead body while making their rounds, they go into alert mode until they find and kill you, or they die. This as opposed to walking right over the recently murdered corpse of their fallen gang member. I'm not saying everyone in the dungeon should constantly be moving, I'm saying it would be nice to see 2-3 designated patrols walking the entire dungeon, or devoted to checking out multiple rooms at least. Maybe not even constantly, maybe just at certain hours of the day. If you kill someone in town, and a guard finds the dead body but did not see you kill the victim, they should question you. If you took anything off the dead body (except for money, because money all looks the same), they should determine you were the murderer, and exact justice however the situation warrants. If you were to kill someone in a house, and a family member finds the dead body, they should immediately run for a guard to come and search the house for intruders. Maybe not the whole house, moving around like a one-man SWAT team, but search around a bit though.

Bounty - As for having a bounty placed on your head after killing an innocent (or someone believed as an innocent by society), this needs to be tweaked. In Oblivion, it happened way to often even when there were absolutely no people around to possibly see or hear your assassinations. I'm sure they already had plans to improve this, but it still needs to be said.

Area of Criminal Activity - Committing a crime in one town should not instantly be known by every guard in the entire world. I played Oblivion with a mod that changed this, so I know it can be done, and it was quite enjoyable. Guards in other towns should be made aware of major crimes after one day for every town away they are (So a town five towns over would find out about your major crime 5 days later). Minor crimes should only stay in the town/area that you committed them (The Black Horse Courier wouldn't waste their time taking that news to the next town).

Regarding concealment, Bethesda has always done a pretty good job. Hopefully they can keep it up in this game.

Thrown Weapons

Bring these back, for one. Even if you can't find any use with throwing weapons because they may not suit you, it's good to have options. If you can do this in Morrowind, with an inferior engine, I don't understand why they wouldn't be in a game for PC, PS3, and 360. I'm okay with them not having the range of a bow and arrow. I expect that.

You should be able to poison your thrown weapons. Once poisoned, they should become a different weapon altogether (i.e. "Poisoned Throwing Star" like in Morrowind), to avoid confusion in your inventory. (Fallout New Vegas has this problem where the weapon does NOT change whatsoever after being poisoned and this causes glitches).

One poison should coat several thrown weapons. This makes sense due to the fact that thrown weapons are usually smaller.

That's all for now. I believe I'll revise this list a bit, if need be. I know it isn't perfect.

To my fellow ninjas: Keep this topic bumped before it's too late for Bethesda to implement it!

No psychic guards.

We might not need actual thrown weapons, but Id like to be able to throw my held weapon. Obviously a SnS warrior characters not going to throw his sword around, but if you could do it to catch a last fleeing NPC before he runs for help thatd be nice. And I could keep a few daggers on me for my stealth characters, pre-poisoned.

For guards... The problem I had in Oblivion was that only stealth related quests and areas had actual patrols(besides a city). In any other cave or fort most of them just had idle AI and there were no lookouts or patrols or anything, so it was more of a "wait for him to wander 2 steps to the right with his back turned to me" kind of thing instead of planning my attack. Not that Id want it to get too mathematical but a little better NPC placement for stealth characters would be nice.

Maybe Hand to Hand could be used for non-lethal stealth attacks? Like a choke-hold or blackjack. I like Deadly Reflex for Oblivion because you could initiate a surprise opener with a large weapon(leap attack) OR you could use a dagger and sneak right up and slit their throats for a silent kill.

All in all... I feel stealth characters should be played in a tactical plan-ahead way. They have the time to watch and wait and plan their attack, so should have a variety of tools to use in a given situation. This is kind of balanced because when you mess things up as a lightly armoured(or unarmoured) character using a dagger, that group of plate wearing marauders are going to kick your ass.

my problem in oblivion had to do with concealment. i do not think it was wholly satisfactory. in fact i think good hiding places were hard to come by, all you did in ob was stay out of the line of sight and that was fine [for THAT game] but there should be other options to conceal your presence.

not only should shadows play a big part in staying hidden, but so should distractions and deceit.
audible distractions [breaking glass, loud footsteps, throwing rocks],
visual distractions [illusions, flash powder,decoys]
and disguise, camouflage . [self explanatory]

As far as stealth goes, one thing that bothers me is that if you're standing in a dark area, you're automatically harder to see even if you have a very brightly lit area behind you, and an enemy in front of you. He miraculously fails to see your obvious silhouette. I don't know how hard this would be to implement, but it would definitely make stealth play much more difficult (and, in my opinion, more fun as a result of having to consider your full surroundings and enemy's perspective.)

I doubt they'd put kicking in to the game, but I agree with what you say about making fists more effective, my opinion is though that you cant make them too effective like in assasins creed were all your doing is disarming openents, because then you wouldnt use any thing else but your fists, so their needs to be a balance between them for sure.

I like the idea of the kahjiit having retractable claws, but I dont think it should be used out side of stealth, I feel it would be more effective if you could only use it in prone. And also no matter what level you are, it should grant you HEAVY DAMAGE on a succesfull sneak attack (like +70% damage)... in the game your claws shouldnt way anything or wear out (no repairing or sharpening them).

I also agree with what you say about the guards and their patrols, if you kill some one and a guard finds the dead body they should look for an intruder/muderer and either give up or go get help if they cant find you, not just come walking in your direction when your prone and well out of sight as was allways the case in Oblivion!!
And yes, you should only have a bounty on your head when your crime has been witnesed and REPORTED, not before.

I like the idea of the guards having to search you, if evidence is on you then they have the right to arrest you under suspicion of an act of crime, however if they cant pin anything on you, then you must be allowed to go... I think that would give the game much, much more realism!!

I would like it if you could knock people out, but I think it should only be possible like if your a master at unarmed combat or have a perk similar to the one in fall out that allows you to paralyse people.
I would also like it if you could pick up bodys and hide them out of sight as its a feature thats crucial if you going stealth, however its some thing I could live with out as long as they fixed all the other annoying problems listed.

Guards that know your behind them because your sneak skill is low.
Assassination animations when 1 shotting someone.
(Somewhat off topic) Guards that arrest you for a crime you committed when nobody was around to even witness it or report it. Remove this.

this is everything I wanted

a lot of those have been modded into OB. here's hoping Beth finally recognizes its a good idea and puts those in themselves

Also, extinguishable torches.

I think, in regards to the argument to bring back thrown weapons, many leave something out: poison. Thrown weapons weren't that great in Morrowind because the damage wasn't that great. Sure, they had their uses (especially Dwemer Darts, which were stupid powerful, especially if they were the enchanted kind), such as staggering one's opponent to slow them down, but they just weren't worth the effort. With the introduction of Poisons in Oblivion, and assuming they're still in for Skyrim, we could see thrown weapons being a PERFECT carrier for poison. Quick to take out, fast to throw, and fast to rearm to throw another. Poison and thrown weapons just go hand in hand. A crafty thief could carry a slowing poison and apply it to a dart when needed. Alternatively, a powerful damaging poison could be used for quick assassination missions.

Well I'm glad I'm getting a lot of positive feedback.

You know, that "fair ideas" option was kind of for my own amusemant. Just wanted to see how many people were willing to admit "Yeah, I'm the kind of person that will shell out another $60+ on content I already received with NO additional progress made to the gameplay WHATSOEVER, just a new environment is all. That's me."

So far, four.

lol that whole leg attack bit made me remember chuck norris in oblivion.
"What was that thing he did with his feet?"
"That was a kick."
"k-ick?"
"its an ancient technique that is only known by the ancients. its very ancient."

edit: i also hope for the sneaking mechanics itself you are able to put your back against the wall. i hated having to exploit the third person camera just to see around a corner. and i agree with most of what you said

yes these ideas are very good.

sometimes i wonder why someone didn't think of and implement some of these obvious things during oblivion's production (especially the stealth portion of your ideas).

Cool ideas, In oblivion my main skills were sneak and marksman, so I could [censored] people from kilometres away without them knowing.

They should make awesomer sneak-based clothing. Thrown weapons sound good too I would not like my knife-fighting char to have to whip out a big ugly longbow to hit that [censored] that hides ten metres away. It would be much cooler to just chuck my knife at him.

All though these are all great ideas and I would love to have them in the game we need to make sure we keep a realistic view point on such things. 1st the game is less then a year a way making it hard to change without extending the release date which should not ever happen. 2nd I think that this game will be amazing no matter what. 3rd We need to have improvements to magic and combat as well.

That being said, I think that stealth should absolutely be made better because it was some what of a weak point in Oblivion. I think the best fixes they could make have been stated by you guys.

Knockout is not realistic at all, its basically impossible to knock somebody out without causing brain damage or death, claws, well Is houdln't have to tell you whats wrong with that.

Moving bodies, though? Yes, definitely. Theres really no reaction to dead bodies, ever. In Oblivion they check the body, but they don't really "react" to it per say. They just continue on their merry way after saying something about the body.

Fallout 3 and NV already did away with the psychic guards.(yes its gone for good!! enough about it already) In case you never played those games.Prone is not going to be in the game,if its not there already.
Edit for smartypants people:When you steal something a guard wont run in and "Stop,You violated the law!" wont ensue

:rofl: Ah, so good.

Anyways, brilliant ideas. The stealth in TES games has always lacked a real vibe to it (no disrespect Bethesda, I know you do things your own way, but expectations have been rasied this past decade of gaming). And it's always nice to see a fellow Ninja. :ninja:

To enforce certain points:

-Stealth is very much about tactics. Planning your path in and out, accounting for patrols, knowing the lie of the land, etc.
-Throwing weapons are badass and stealth. Stupid bandit running off, or want to take out a sentry who spotted you ten metres away while your cutting his mate's throat? Throw a knife in his face. Stealthy and badassery.
-Definately no psychic guards.
-A realistic dispersal of information regarding: bounty, crimes, etc. Has been discussed in previous posts, to reiterate:


On unarmed combat:

I like the option of Khajiits being able to switch between claws/fist/palm, but I suggest Argonians can too? And perhaps introducing (along with the fabled 'Kick') the ability to bite? Maybe too much, but still, an interesting thought.

Realistically, unarmored vs weapon does tend to favour the weapon, as the ability to hit someone with an object generally has a greater possibility than dodging and disarming, however, skill does obvously play a greater part. It would be AWESOME if unarmed combat was done really well, so that playing a monk/ninja became a much more enjoyable and potentially more powerful process. From sophisticated martial arts to simply slugging it out, hand-to-hand combat could definately have an upgrade.
-More energetic and varied moves.
-Grappling/submission moves.
-Throws (anyone see that mighty big cliff the Dovahkiin nearly fell off in the trailer? Imagine having an epic brawl and shoving your opponent to his death. EPIC and CINEMATIC).
-Stealth combat where you can kill/subdue with your hands: strangling, breaking necks, knocking people out... So many possibilities.

All I've got at the moment. Thoughts/comments?

Is this a serious remark?

You're talking as if Fallout 3 is the first game in the series, there were never any guards in fallout 1 & 2 so obviously there wouldn't be in f3; it didn't "do away" with anything. It's a post apocalyptic wasteland, there's not going to be institutional rule of law.

I mean I refer to F3 as "oblivion with guns" as a joke, but you seem to actually think Fallout is a TES installment :confused:

I men't stealing smart ass.
What I mean is(since I have to elaborate for tards) the guards wont run in know you took something right away.
Double edit:There is no way this is coming back.If you think so,go drink the liquid under the sink.

The idea I love the most is the Khajiit claw thing. I'd definitely train up hand-to-hand on my Khajiit just to use that. =P

The psychic guards are pretty much the only reason why I don't brutally execute people in dark alleyways at night.
I would like to see this happen MWAHA.

I've got another idea, the NPCs should also be included in chases, so the guards can ask them where the character went and depends on how much they like/hate you they'll answer a different question (distract the guard, send him to your or another direction etc.) I think that would be pretty awesome!

Also perhaps switching outfit should be something as well, or if you just quickly run pass them and they don't get to see your whole face they might go and catch another NPC from the same race and gender instead because they think it's him xD

Stuff like that would be cool, and would make the game much better and realistic!