I would say that the quality of games is taking different roads, rather than simply worsening. A lot of lesser known companies and indie developers are still aiming to make complex games, for the apparently small number of gamers that prefer depth and complexity over presentation, like Europa Universalis, Age of Decadence, etc. Games are still fun, but they're not memorable or mind-blowing. Some still have really good aspects. KotOR, I thought, nailed the Star Wars feel, even though it was incredibly easy, a bit shallow in gameplay, and the light side/dark side wasn't executed well. Fallout 3 had awesome places to fight, even though in most other regards the combat and RPG elements were lacking. Strategy games, like Civilization 4, are moving in the right direction in terms of complexity, in my opinion. Or maybe I just svck at them.

There is no reason a modern game cannot outclass ones from years back (aside from political). I would love a game with Witcher class graphics and Dwarf Fortress style world creation and algorithmic terrain; But they don't have to to make a buck.

Its not that folks prefer bad graphics, or even don't care what they look like... It is that they prioritize differently, and a Bloom and HDR light show does not outweigh the rest of the game. If I could not have Witcher/Oblivion graphics, and an extreme database driven AI with state of the art chatbot that uses personality profiles... the graphics go, and Diablo class graphics would more than suffice.

I would prefer a game that spent the lion's share of the PC resources calculating AI instead of shaders, simple as that.

In terms of graphics, I think art design is usually more important than technical ability. Diablo vs. Diablo 3 is a good example.

Fallout 3 looked great, and managed to get the atmosphere spot on - but it wasn't even close to true Fallout, more like a cheap knockoff. I imagine F4 will be more of the same. I'll probably buy it when the good people of the FOOK team make the mod we all know is going to be badly needed, because apparently gamesas are too lazy to make more than a dozen guns for a game whose predecessor had about a hundred.

Now, New Vegas is definitely more interesting. Chris Avellone, Feargus Urquhart, and a significant number of other ex-Black Isle Studios team back at the helm of a Fallout game? I'll be pre-ordering that one just as soon as I can...

I wouldn't call it lazy, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_weapons. If it was important to their design, it would have them... but it wasn't, and so it follows the formula; (the same formula that dictates no multiple ammo types, and weightless mines & rockets). With weapons there has to be a clear visual indicator of where it ranks in the list from pea-shooter to nuke ~Subtle uses are not desirable..

Fallout 3 was designed for the guy that heard about Fallout, thinks it sounds cool, and wonders if its like Call of Duty. Such a guy buys it, finds that it is [sort of], but that its so much more, and he just has to tell his friends about it. ~Never mind though that its below the bar for those that played the series from the start.
*(and for those that might decide to take offense... The Bar I mention is not the same as you might think. Fallout 1 cannot compare to Fallout 3 against what Fallout 3 tries to be, and so it is that FO3 cannot measure up to what Fallout 1 tried to be ~Both have tried and succeeded, but most that knew of Fallout before the media blitz, wanted FO3 to compete with Fallout on the same field. Unfortunately ~and predictably, most of those that learned of Fallout from the media blitz, want and expect something more reasonably familiar ~and there's just more of them's than us's )

**I most likely won't buy Fallout 4 if it continues it's present path ~unless it has better mod tools, and exposes more of the internals. Fallout 3 is sufficient, and has plenty to play with in the GECk. Buying Fallout 4 would be like buying Windows all over again in two years

I must say that i fully agree, but some part of me cant but wonder if the newer generations of gamers are so used to "crappy" written games that they dont know the difference between good and bad..
Yea sure, its a hella lot cooler with full HDR or maxed out antialiasing, but a world of effects dosent make a good game.. Far from it..
Like comparing FO1/FO2 storyline, subplots, dialogs etc. with how FO3 turned out to be - Eyecandy, but not much more..
It's becoming harder and harder to find games with a good written storyline and a plot that will consume you.. Only the graphics are getting better..

At some point I would say the gaming industry is de-evolving, as i fear might be the case with FO:NV
Not sure i dare to buy it..

Gizmo - I know there's more than a dozen weapons in F3, I was making a point. Take a good look at that list, and count how many are just slightly better versions of the same old thing. Even with the DLC weapons there are only 3 assault rifles, two shotguns (three if you count the sawn off), five pistols, an SMG, a sniper rifle, a few more general rifles, and a couple of energy weapons. For an RPG, which F3 claims to be, that's just pathetic. When I'm choosing the weapons I'll use for any given character, I want the choices to actually mean something - this assault rifle does better damage, that one has a higher crit%, this one is more accurate, that one's silenced, and this one is a balance. I don't want to have the best rifle in the game before I leave Megaton for the first time! Part of the fun of a game like Fallout is finding some new fancy gun that gives you new fancy ways to kill people (I'm thinking F2's Pulse Rifle as a good example). In this way Beth completely failed, and took most of the fun out of exploring the various ruins that they worked so hard to create. If I already have the best weapon and armour I can get, why bother?

As I said, I personally think F3 captured much of the spirit of the Fallout universe, in a way that simply wasn't possible 12 years ago. What they need to work on is the actual RPG elements of the game, and part of that is giving players a good selection of ways to improve how their character actually plays, not just stats. Unfortunately, Beth's trend is to go in the opposite way (Anyone want to draw Morrowind-Oblivion comparisons?), while Obsidian has the sort of credentials that make me mark the days for their game releases.

If Beth can get their act together, fantastic (I'm willing to write F3 off as a teething exercise). If not...well, we'll still have New Vegas.

Wasn't disputing you, and I understood the point. My point was they didn't seem to want too many weapons for an FPS style game, and that subtlety seems undesirable. Consider had they made a zip gun as a usable weapon (something you're well more than likely to find in such a setting); Imagine that the weapon's real use is that it usually passes a cursory weapons search, allowing the player to enter a situation seemingly unarmed, but have the weapon if needed. Imagine an encounter like Gizmo from Fallout 1 or Set... where a more detailed visual RPG would have you stripped of your weapons before meeting with them. That is unfortunately beyond the scope of what they chose to design ~Though it would be trivial to mod the very thing into the game with an encounter that the guards keep your weapons at the door (but maybe miss the zip gun). This is what one would expect of Fallout 3 done 10 years later on a PC 100x better in all respects

Oh, you mean exactly like what they did when you go to The Pitt? Cuz yeah, that happens.

That's DLC ~I don't have any of that, and its not of the Base game... I did say it would be trivial to add it ~so they did... so what? That doesn't happen anywhere but the pit does it? The point was not about that, the point was about a hand weapon with less than obvious use. Subtlety is taboo in this game.

Which is the saddest part of all - F3 COULD have been one of the greatest RPG's of all time, if Beth had bothered to put in the time and effort to develop it properly. It's always felt half finished to me - they created this amazing world, filled with so much potential, and then said, 'Bugger it, that's close enough'. The vast majority of the quests are far too lineal (with the notable exception of The Replicated Man - why couldn't more of the quests have been like that one?), the NPC's are more like cardboard cutouts of archetypes, and the weapons are boring. Fair enough they wanted to cater for new Fallout fans as well as old - I understand that, it's just good business. But they went too far, and vastly oversimplified everything that made Fallout great (which is exactly what they did with Oblivion). It is entirely possible to cater to everyone - it's simply about choices.

A good example - you mentioned a zip gun. In F2 they originally had plans for the shiv similar to what you're talking about - if you had it equipped in, say, NCR, the guards wouldn't see it, so you could be 'armed' on the streets. It was never implemented, but at least they had the idea. What I want is something like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, where if you sneak up behind someone with say, a knife, you can stealth kill them without the need for a shooting match or alerting every idiot in a six mile radius. Yes, I know you can do something like that with the Mister Sandman perk, but it's still not the same. I want to be able to sneak my way through a raider camp and kill them all without them even knowing I'm there, using simple stealth. Unfortunately, F3 is inherently limited that way, making it impossible. Stealth characters are largely pointless - why bother when it's easier to just whip out a minigun and shred everything to pieces?

Don't even get me started on the DLC. The Pitt and Broken Steel are the only two of the five even worth mentioning. Seriously, what the heck were they smoking when they came up with Mothership Zeta?!?

And for God's sake Bethesda, stop stuffing up the lore, damnit!

It's Fallout. :shrug:

Umm...now that I think about it, you have a point. :blink:

At the very least, though, if you're going to force me to play a tank...give me back my Vindicator!

This thread seems to have run its course, and as it's TES equivalent has been locked and redirected to the Elder Scrolls suggestion thread it seems applicable to do the same here.