Dude you gonna find yourself mainly alone here, as they have not taken the key elements which make this one of the best game series ever, so if its so bad that you are hating already without playing the game, I would suggest renting a copy after it comes out and trying it, or go play Dragons age or something equally bland and boring, as for those of us that defend it to the death, it is quite easy to do so, they have never made me regret having bought their games in this series, (have to say it again hated WET ,... svcked big time) and I am positive I will love this game !

Well, for my part, it's not so much that I defend Beth blindly, or anything. I just don't see the things they've "taken away" as bad. Lemme explain:

Spears and Crossbows: in every game I've played, they were either utterly overpowered, or completely useless. So I have such bad memories of those that I'm basically glad they're not in...

Attributes: They've actually changed the whole leveling system, so on less customization layer, and one more elsewhere, seems like a fair deal. besides, I've never really liked the attributes system of the old games anyways. I prefer not having control over them directly.

Some skills: Well, they've actually removed to skills, not the possibilities we had in-game. The only thing is that you don't start off as a goofy weakling in them, that's all

Spellmaking: They are still fiddling with it, it's never been confirmed that it was officially out. and besides, if it's not in that'll give them a reason to not make the default spells so svckish anyways.


That's just the way I see things. And besides, with everything they've added, I can only be optimistic

Lol. It'g been going for 3 pages so far.

Good call.

As I've told another forumer (probably you) people gave good reasons and valid arguments to why Attributes / Spears / H2H so far / werewolves /vampires almost every cut feature under the sun


and the only outstanding replies they get are


Stop whining

Beth knows best

I don't like your method shut up (without giving a counter method)

and every other negetive response out there -PURELY- because they are "fine" with what Bethesda is doing, nothing more :shrug: I guess many of them haven't heard Todd say They like to experiment with new things sometimes they work sometimes they don't and whats even more funny is petes sarcastic response to a feature sometime ago before there was even a hint of H2H being cut and the video showing how Bethesda studios has a Sparring room :bonk: like the f lol.....



Disclaimer: the current response is based on Known information, not conjecture, not hopes, or garbage taken from the blue.

gpstr. I salute you, oh wise and calm one.

What irritates me are the folk who defend Bethesda's design decisions simply because they never used the features that were taken out. if the features were underdeveloped and glitchy, perhaps - but honestly TES V should be the developers' chance to rework these things and make them enjoyable again, as they seem to be doing with the entire magic system. I can understand that there are limits to when you'd be better off removing a system entirely instead of wasting unecessary time trying to fix it when you're unsure how to do so.

My favorite thing about the TES games when I first jumped on the bandwagon (with Daggerfall and Morrowind) was the variety more than anything else. After having been an MMORPG junkie for so long, it was really interesting to see more unique weapon types such as tantos and throwing stars. Maybe they weren't perfect, but they made the game world seem a lot more diverse and planned out. Not to mention all of the inventive ways loot was hidden in dungeons. Were literally all non-unique dungeon treasures in Oblivion placed in containers? The game was practically Diablo in the sense that you always received your rewards and knew when you would. Why not just cut out the middle-man and give players gold instantly upon killing things, since it seems like they just want the game to be so streamlined and predictable?

I don't mind some messy things, even if most people ignore them or don't use them, I'll appreciate them simply for being there. Spontaneity and variety is what made Morrowind so great, and even Daggerfall to a lesser scale (mostly with its assortment of clothing and paintings).

When some jerk says "oh I'm so glad those are gone, because Morrowind had them/I didn't care about them/you guys are too nostalgic", I want to scream. These people just seem to enjoy spiting everybody's losses. After all, the true TES gamers are the ones who won't care about what Bethesda does and will just buy the games! Fans who complain aren't true fans, they clearly have no idea what the games are about! :dry:

And thats when it becomes a problem. People actually relish when something is removed. Those people are not true TES fans.

And these people think that people who get up-in-arms about things being removed aren't true TES fans, because we apparently are just too impractical and rooted in the nostalgia of the past games, blindly playing new TES games exclusively for the sake of trying to find some contiguousness with the previous games. I enjoy how Bethesda makes an effort to keep each Elder Scrolls game interesting and playing differently from the last, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Those people who scorn the DF/MW/OB fans for lamenting content removal sicken me. What really annoys me, these folk NEVER seem to suggest any compromises nor an ideal way they'd personally like to have things done. They're just happy that Bethesda changed them, regardless of what implementation. They're the ones causing real resentment and tension amongst the Elder Scrolls fanbase, moreso than the childish Morrowind/Oblivion bashing ever has. :rolleyes:

If they dont have horses

Obviously we are the true fans, since we actually care what we are given and dont blindly praise/defend Beth like it was a partisan issue. Constructive criticism is good for the franchise. Removing, or possibly removing gameplay mechanic and not replacing them with somthing is not a good thing. so we are pretty much in agreement.

I think some here are being rather hard on the OP, and in doing so are giving more credence to his original point. Many of us here have been made nervous about some things that are either rumoured to be removed, or confirmed as removed. The contingent of wizards, if you will, to which I belong :wink_smile: has a lot of ruffled feathers, robes in a bunch, and pointy hats turned inside out over the prospect of spell making being, possibly, removed. It will come as no surprise that characters who enjoy playing as martial arts experts are upset about hand to hand. And I think what can be very offensive to many in any camp which is fond of a feature that may soon go missing, is when other players who don't use that specific feature come in and brazenly proclaim that the removal of the feature in question really isn't a loss etc. And in some cases it can seem like rampant fan defense, more loyalty than logic.

I agree about criticism and consumer feedback being crucial to the evolution and progress of any series. But I have a hard time actually considering ANY criticism made so far as being "constructive," and any anything more than "speculative." So to me, it is a lot of repetitive, pessimistic speculation.

The problem about these forums is that Bethesda never gets praise for anything. There's tons of complaints about what must be changed/removed (and I myself am quite guilty of this just as much as everyone else), but when's the last time we've outright told them "this is great, never get rid of it"? I feel that's largely responsible for why we lost so many nice touches from MW to OB such as carryable lanterns, candles, and the ability to actually read spell scrolls.

Amid all the hype about how much better Oblivion's combat system has to be over Morrowind's, the folks at Bethesda probably felt nobody cared about all the little, personal touches that I miss so dearly now. Nobody ever mentions the positives of a game until they're gone, or Bethesda's too far into development with the next game to really have a schedule malleable enough to accommodate all of these last-minute forum wishes.

Todd.... as long as he is The Glorious Leader I am happy. In Todd I trust.

Simply not true.



Clearly, you haven't been paying attention.
I'd say the complaints to praises ratio neigbours 3:1, not 3:0.



I'd say that's pretty naive of you. To think Bethesda bases major game design decisions only on forum traffic. I mean, that's quite an ugly portrayal of Todd's role, actually.

Bottom line,.
This is not North Korea, thankfully.
Democracy is a wonderful thing.

Yeah, but it's still too high for my liking. Especially considering that we can get entire series of threads debating individual things like H2H, it can kind of overshadow all of the smaller minutiae people are thankful for from DF/MW/OB.


Alright, maybe that was poor wording to insinuate that they got most of their ideas from the forums. But frankly, do you really think those sales figures and mainstream reviewers who call Skyrim "the best Elder Scrolls game yet" and then give reasons that only compare its improvements to those of Oblivion give any more personal testimony? The forums may not be the most cohesive representation of Bethesda's audience, but it's one of few places where I'd think they really have any chance of hearing some of the more exotic appraisals and complaints, over things the developers may have forgotten entirely. :shrug:

Like the ability to delete spells!

pre oblivion release......

It's not people wanting features in the game that sets people off about whining. It's a certain style of rhetoric commonly abused by people critical of Bethesda's design decisions, which is practically designed to antagonize absolutely everyone.

The biggest offender is the term "dumbing down." It's an incredibly condescending label, applied to every single design decision Bethesda makes, with connotations that completely destroy any chance of the person using the term making a credible argument. By saying that a design decision constitutes "dumbing down," to appeal to a wider but inferior audience, you're saying that anyone who doesn't hate the decision just as much as you do is part of that wider audience, and therefore an idiot. The same basic problem is exacerbated by the PC/console divide. Any time a PC gamer plays console gamers for a design decision they don't like (and notice that this never happens in reverse) the message they get across isn't, "this is a bad design decision," it's "you're a bad person and you don't deserve to play games."

This is part of a more general theme of exclusionary rhetoric, the implicit accusation that anyone who doesn't share your exact opinions just isn't as good as you. The title of this very thread implies that anybody who isn't upset already is something so insulting the forum actually has to censor it, and that their opinion therefore isn't valid. The OP continues this same theme. First, it generalizes the other side and tries to label them all as extremists. The OP essentially says that everyone who isn't already upset about the direction of the game is a mindless drone who believes Bethesda is always right, and will defend their decisions to the death. As if it weren't possible to like something without thinking it was perfect. Ironically, this has a further implication that the OP probably didn't intend - if everyone who isn't upset with the entire game believes every decision Bethesda makes is perfect and should be defended to the death, then, logically, anyone who criticizes any of Bethesda's decisions must be upset with the entire game.

That so many objections are just kneejerk reactions doesn't help, either. Any design decision Bethesda makes will be criticized, and a lot of the criticism is just going to be about how it's not how it used to be, or not how that person, personally would have done it. When somebody just blindly complains about a decision and then casually insults you in the process, of course you're going to try to defend the decision. At the very least, you're going to explain why you have a legitimate reason for not thinking the decision proves that Skyrim will be the worst game ever. Intelligent counter-arguments are dismissed. Hell, look at this very thread and you'll see posts that translate roughly to, "You're just mindlessly defending Bethesda! How dare you not hate all the things I hate, monster?" Mindless criticism is repeated. If you, personally, do not approve, then anyone who does approve must be part of the Evil Conspiracy To Make Bad Games.

In other words, people arguing against the removal of their pet features have a bad habit of using rhetoric that turns their message into "Everyone who doesn't hate Skyrim is a bad person (possibly a corporate shill or bipedal sheep), and should stop playing games so that games can be fun." I hope you can see why people don't respond well to this. Obviously, not everyone (or even most people) on the pro-pet-feature side uses that rhetoric (there's a lot of entirely sensible people in this very thread who seem to be genuinely confused why people are reacting to their issues the way they are) and there are in fact genuinely good arguments in favor of features that have been removed, but there's enough elitism on that side to color every criticism of the game. People get defensive, and a little vindictive. And when so many of the complaints are mindless and insulting, well, why bother to pay attention at all?

tl;dr: People aren't listening to you because you sound like http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-who-enjoys-thing-informed-he-is-wrong,7057/.

Your point being...?

A little snippet for people saying Bethesda doesnt listen to its fans.

Of course they do!
I mean, they maintain a public forurm. So it should be pretty obvious to anyone.
On the other hand, it's a delusion to think Bethesda bases major game design decisions solely on forumers's posts.

They alone have the final word.
They alone are accountable..

This! Everyone read this!

I have yet to see anyone who goes with the flow with whats being done, get overly bashed or flamed when they enjoy a feature


you don't see

STOP PRAISING THEM


you see STOP COMPLAINING WHINERS


anytime someone pokes their heads up in protest they are immediately swarmed like sitting ducks for having an opinion not flowing with the norm...so don't even.

Have you even read this very thread?

Read what posts I have in this very thread to answer that question :facepalm: