I'm aware of that. I was being incredulous, since this entire thread is full of the very thing you just said doesn't exist. Here, let me go find an example.



Translation: People who don't agree with me don't care about the game, and just blindly praise/defend Bethesda.

I mean, seriously, how can you not see this? :facepalm:

Now in what way was he bashing people that agree with Beths descisions? and instead of twisting his statement I'd like all viewers to know he was replying the the very thing Im talking about. some Base saying people who complain are Non true bethesda fans....so yeah...

"really devoted fan" is some of the best insults you can call someone, fyi. It makes you sound deliciously evil.

Well, gee, I dunno. Removing spears was pretty ballsy.

This just makes me wonder.. Who was that bloody fool who suggested fast travel?!

nah, just kidding. It's an okay feature, but I wouldn't miss it...

I... I don't even know where to begin with this. This is literally the opposite of reality. The label of "true fan" was first created to serve people who wanted to bash people for liking things (see, a fan is someone who likes something and a true fan is someone who doesn't, but feels like they should be regarded as experts on it anyway; that's why they need the distinction in the first place). The poster Xarnac quoted was complaining about how some of the more garden-variety fans had (understandably) tried to turn that label around. They made a good point, mind you, but that doesn't justify Xarnac responding by taking the term back to its original, malicious definition.

And now that I've let that distract me: do you seriously not see how saying that agreeing with a decision is the same thing as mindlessly agreeing with all decisions is bashing people who fit the first test? I'll give you a hint: the key word is "mindless."

hand to hand is still in it just isnt a skill and is under strenght..obviously if you dont have a weapon equiped you can use your fists

The problem is just that strength isn't in anymore either.

But I also think unarmed combat is still in.
They have just said that the skill is gone, not the use.

I think Arilias made a good point here: just because you happen to agree so far, doesn't mean you mindlessly agree to everything that will ever be announced.

I will disagree when I see something that's actually worth fighting for. so far all that we lost is numbers, a thing which doesn't equal gameplay... ok we lost spears and crossbows, but they were already gone in Oblivion, and I didn't feel they were missing. I won't bash people for THAT, but I'm not the one who's gonna stand up for things I hate

Are we arguing about who are the real fans?

That's just sad...

Say what... so now monks are being Ret-conned out of Tamriel too???

For the love of Role Playing, what are you doing to this game world Todd?

Believe it or not, medieval European monks were not known for their mastery of unarmed combat.

If Oblivion had cowbells I would have been extremely heart-broken if they were removed.

EDIT: That said, Skyrim needs more cowbell!

@Arilias they are thinking of the 'Eastern' version of monk. Shao Lin or however it is spelled.

Yeah it is sad when that's what you drew from the conversation :teehee:

And Arr no I don't label Xars comment as trolling or bashing becuase that's not a particular thing he does. And you said it was all over the thread... So if to continue this bit I'd like a better example please

Thanks for that factiod, I'm not sure I care about medievil European monks though. I'm more concerned about Tamriel monks when it comes to The Elder Scrolls... you know, like the temple of the ancestor moths, with their elder scrolls reading monks that were unarmed experts... but yeah I can see how you might think that an obscure lore reference, I mean who ever heard of the elder scrolls :rolleyes: .

The real question is, what are you going to do if you're right and Skyrim is no fun? What would you have accomplished with all the nitpicking?

Why stress about it? I'm looking forward to it and if it really is no good I'll just sell it and move on. There really hasn't been any REAL turn offs anyway with the bits of info we've been getting.

This is a silly argument and you know it.

Omega: I wouldn't call it trolling, but it's certainly bashing. As for other examples, just off the top my head, try the OP. The very title of this thread is bashing people who aren't "upset." And while you're at, search the forums for "dumb down." It's not as bad as it was in the days of Oblivion's development, fortunately, but it's still pretty damn bad.

If we start to think of the game as a really immersed action adventure game instead of a role playing game, we can adjust more easily to the changes.


BTW, I am in my last stage of the Grief handling since they removed attributes. 1. Denial and Isolation. 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. 5. Acceptance. ...

First I didn't believe the news, (thats probably how I missed the rumor months ago). Then I was really animated on some forums. Then I tried to suggest fixes. Then I took a long hiatus from the forums, now the last stage brings me to my first point.

I'm still stuck on Stage 4. I don't want TES to become an action adventure game.

My name is Alois Hammer, I'm a recovering Elder Scrolls junkie, and I'm proud to announce I'm happily at stage 5.

I don't consider the step from Oblivion to Skyrim a process of "dumbing down". I do it however when comparing Morrowind to Oblivion.

Where are the crossbows? Gone with Oblivion and not back in Skyrim.

Where are the spears? Gone with Oblivion and not back in Skyrim.

Where are the throwing weapons? Gone with Oblivion and not back in Skyrim.

Where are levitation and flight spells? Gone with Oblivion and not back in Skyrim.

Where are...?

Now, with regard to the changes from Oblivion to Skyrim, I don't feel that there's that much gameplay (or roleplay) defining stuff taken out.

Hand to Hand combat is no longer a skill but apparently still possible. Spellmaking is gone but we can combine spells on-the-fly.

We'll have dual-wielding in the game which is a plus. We'll likely have branched quests based on the so called "Radiant Story". The AI is likely to beat Oblivion's in any possible way. The new levelling system seems to be more motivating as well and in some ways more complex than Oblivion's.

All in all, I don't think Skyrim will be less complex than Oblivion or dumbed down when compared to its predecessor, however it IS in fact less complex than Morrowind, but that has already been the case with Oblivion.

And once again when someone objects to the lore of TES being ret-conned, and persons come out and try to beat them into submission with non sensical arguments.

I'm sorry? I made a perfectly sensible point - that wuxia-style master martial artist monks were out of place in a medieval-Europe-esque setting like Tamriel to begin with. You responded by saying that, because Tamriel is not, in fact, the actual medieval Europe, bizarre out-of-place elements like that are not only just fine, but a critical part of the lore, the retconning of which somehow makes the game no longer an RPG.

I mean, come on, you're accusing me of trying to beat you into submission with nonsensical arguments? Do you see the irony here?

removed hand to hand? no it's not an rpg anymore, sorry.

I mean acrobatics and athletics were okay, but hand to hand? No, it's an action game from now on...
:facepalm:

Also a skill disappears from the game, that means it doesn't and never existed ever... sounds logical.
Like remember medium armor. Yup those never existed either, forget about those chainmails, those are fake...

I didn't mind the changes till they nixed H2H, I always made a hand to hand build in all their games and it bugs me they took it out as skill, and therefore even if it's in (they have to do something if all your stuff is gone or broke), it won't be viable for as a main fighting skill, Which in rugged Nord country would fit perfectly if spruced up a bit.This doesn't stop me from having this game at the top of my list, but will probably cut the time I spend on it as there are now one less choice taken from me.

I may seem like a Bethesda "White Knight" defending every decision they make, but my actual stance isn't defense, but explaining potential justifications for the removal, from the perspective of someone who actually doesn't like things being removed.

Attributes for example, I had been hopeful they would make it to the final game, but they didn't. I didn't "Freak out" over their loss, because as a "Devil's advocate" of sorts, I can see why it makes sense, if I don't totally agree with the decision. I recognize games as art, and as such, I see them as not a list of Features, but instead a unique creation inspired by creative minds. So without getting my hands on the context of what they're creating, there's no real use in complaining about it. It may, in fact, be better.

What would it actually take to get me in a rage/uproar before playing the game?

You'd have to dismantle the pillars which The Elder Scrolls games are founded on. exploration, character development and the lore. So far, these things are intact, and the game deserves it's title of "The Elder Scrolls V:" Creating an Elder Scrolls game without these pillars, would in sense, create a spinoff, and by labeling it as "The Elder Scrolls" is a lie, and what would really set me off. Changing the name would be the solution of course, and while I may not like that direction, it's not inherently decietful. For an example of this, look no further than Dragon Age 2.

Origins had established the series on a foundation of the "Old school" RPG feel of the great Isometrics back in the day. Dragon Age 2, was a nearly a complete 180 degree turn, in terms of direction. Opting in the strengths of Mass Effect in a context that didn't suit what players had come to expect. Now it's true, that might be unfair for a game with only the two entries, but by labeling it "Dragon Age", I feel Bioware was intently deceitful to the community that made the Original succeed in the first place.