The hand-to-hand removal thread is http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1197498-hand-to-hand-removed-thread-ii/, guys. This thread is about how people complaining about design decisions in Skyrim have a persecution complex.

It would take a massive overhaul of the system before I'll get ticked off, or if they change the Bretons too much and make them ugly.

But... it always has been, ever since the time I vaulted over the 2-square-long sewer drain in the Imperial Dungeons of Arena and stabbed a trio of goblins in the face as my Khajiit acrobat! Good times I've tried to emulate in every game. From this test... I've concluded Morrowind is the worst Elder Scrolls game ever. Daggerfall not only let me vault across gaps while stabbing people in the face, but also climb up walls to jump off and stab people in the face in mid-air before I landed on them. And it took a while (Gotta get my acrobatics up to 50), but I could eventually do it in Oblivion. Morrowind failed me here.

Traditional RPG mechanics are mostly obsolete in Computer RPGs anyway, as Mass Effect 2 managed to demonstrate. The advanced processors allow for far more real-time depictions of the world and handling of actions than any DM ever could

I'm kinda sad seeing Acrobatics go... Oblivion made the skill so awesome (Apprentice Level: You can now stab people in the face in mid-air. Journeyman: DO A BARREL ROLL! Try a Somersault! You can also stab people in the face really hard in mid-jump.)

But... there's nothing there that can't be turned into perks that increase Jump Height by 25%/50%, reduce falling damage by 15%/30%, allow dodging, and permit mid-air attacks.

Medievil european monks are not tamriel monks.. for a starter, european monks weren't stealth experts nor were they archery experts.
Medievil european monks could not read magical scrolls that foretold the future but also made them blind either...
oh, and incase you missed the obvious point, tamriel is not medievil europe.

Now, to the facts of the matter, I express my concern that tamriel monks are being re-written in a way that removes a key part of their nature, their skill with the fist, and you reply with "Medievil european monks were not known for their unarmed skill"... what part of my post mentioned medievil european monks? Where in my post did I ask you to leap to the stage and provide a defense of Bethesda's decision?

Respectfully, Its fine if you aren't concerned about the lore of The Elder Scrolls, just like its fine for people to not like levitation even though its clearly in the lore of the world. But to reply to my post in such a defensive, passive aggressive manner... Not necisary.

Roleplaying to me means that I have freedom to make choices and I have an impact on the world. It means that I will have interactions beyond simple combat into crafting or exploration. It means I will take a character and turn them into a force of nature.

It doesn't mean that somewhere there has got to be a spreadsheet of numbers.

both sides sometimes express their opinions in ways we make the holders of opinions from either side seem stupid or that only a stupid person or someone who isnt a true tes fan would hold. Personally i think both sides have valid arguments, i dont agree with some of beths decicisions (such as removing h2h skill) but i do see why they made other decisions (removing attributes).

Our posts still fit the thread, even if we only focus on one design decision (the most recent one) to express our point. My point being any decision that takes away choice is a bad one IMO. Attributes were fine to me because it's not limiting as they said most of their functions has trickled down to other parts of the game, where as H2H clearly denies us a choice of having a character who's sole fighting style is with fists.

We do not know if the fist-fighting style has been removed.

We know the hand-to-hand skill has been removed. So has the Blade Skill. So has the Blunt skill. So has the Axe Skill...

And, to the guy objecting to Wuxia-style martial arts... Umm, Tamriel isn't strictly Medieval Europe. Morrowind on had a distinctly Far Eastern feel. And Elsweyr is implicitly very asian: The desert (Middle east, Western China, Mongolia) is full of territorial cultures commonly seen as barbaric (Saracen, Mongols), the the Jungled south (Indo-China) is an exotic, very sophisticated culture (China), devastated by drug abuse (Elsweyr has Moon Sugar/Skooma. China had Opium). And the entire race is famous for its martial arts, that equal or exceed armed combat (Wuxia!)

And, the first three games tried to make it clear you were from your race's home province. "Frome Whiche Province Doust Thee Haile"(Select Province, read about local race) "From Which Province are you from"(Select province, read about selected race) "You've finally arrived, but our paperwork doesn't say from where" (Select Race). So, it's not absurd to imagine the Dhovakin being a Khajiit wuxia-hero imported from Tamrielic China.

For some of the more "optimistic" fans on these forums, I think they would be fine with everything. It almost seems many of them would defend Bethesda if they turned TES into a linear first person shooter.

I just don't understand what makes Bethesda think that streamlining a game is best. Adding features is always best. Adding a feature and then removing others isn't a net balance.

that may be and I hope it is, but I think they would say if it has been folded into one or two handed skill. I don't know the actual quote from the mag, but from what I've heard it seems to me, H2H is now a very weak placeholder for when you can't equip weapons for whatever reason, and since it is no longer a skill, you cannot level it up or get perks for it, so it will be too weak as a viable option for a fighting style. I would like Todd or anyone at Beth to clairify is it's been folded into another skill or nixed.

Maybe some cool hand moves get thrown in the block skill.

I'm not "not concerned" about the lore of The Elder Scrolls. I just think that this, in particular, is a particularly stupid piece of lore, inherited from D&D, that we're better of jettisoning anyway. I don't know how medieval European monks (which Tamriel's monks are clearly depicted as, with tonsures and habits) got conflated with one particular monastery in China that happened to use martial arts as a form of defense, but it's a bizarre equivocation that thoroughly bugs me. There's really no plausible reason for it in Tamriel.

It seems premature to me to prophesize the end of TES as an RPG just because several attributes and skills have been superficially removed. They may be simply consolidated into other categories. For example, I highly doubt soul trap will simply disappear, but rather be moved into another magical school rather than mysticism. You will most likely still be able to fight with your fists, there may even be perks to supplement this method, even if Hand to Hand was removed as a skill. In addition, we may see new skills in the place of old ones, so it may not be cutting skills so much as consolidating them to make room for new ones, like adding enchanting as a magic skill and dispersing the important mysticism spells to other magical schools. The depth of the game, in this way, could even be increased, before we even look at all the new elements such as crafting or economy. Less of a focus on H2H allows more focus on other categories, possibly new categories. Weapons were always more powerful than hand to hand anyways, so it was essentially obsolete as an individual skill. Fist fighting will probably remain, it just wont take up one of the skill spots that could be reserved for something new and innovative. In any case, there is no way to judge before we have the game to look at in depth through playing experience.

so far im generally in favor of the changes to skyrim.......and im a huge critic of oblivion. i couldnt even make it through one playthrough without having to mod it and that was the first game i ever had to mod before a single playthrough. i will kind of miss attributes but things like perks, magic that interacts with the environment, shield bash and duel wielding and other combat goodies, crafting system, the player being able to do jobs for fun or side income, player being able to perform the same animations as the npcs, semi-random quests so that they arent all the same everyplaythrough, NOT using oblivions level scaling and many others. a couple of bad decisions do not completely wipeout the plethora of improvements over oblivion. that being said its not like there was anywhere to go but up when comparing a game to oblivion.

No, it's certainly not some people overreacting everything, others have blind faith... right.

And thinking that in any gaming franchise, things will never be removed only added is just naive...
No it's not always because the evil devs are streamlining it, but because when you're making a sequel, starting everything from ground up, some things will either be completely different or missing.

Then again, adding a plethora of new features and either removing the less important old ones or dispersing them into different caategories to make room for new material isnt exactly a loss. It seems like pruning a tree to me, to help it grow they need to cut some of the deadweight away, or move it into a new category in this case, and make room for young, healthy branches to expand.

People are just really eager to judge one way or the other.

There is doubt that it will be a good game. I get it. But do you want to give them the benefit of the doubt or not? Do you actually want to see the game in action before you throw a hissy fit or start humping Todd's leg?

The forums needs a more "let's wait and see" attitude. Because...

1) Discussions don't go anywhere
2) It's too hostile
3) THERE IS A LOT WE STILL DON'T KNOW
4) The stuff we do know, is still only gained from comments and second hand sources

All this makes me a sad panda. =(

Make TES linear, and I will be upset.

Fail to sufficiently revamp combat, and I willl be upset.

I'm proud to be a Beth f.a.n.b.o.y, BTW. Beth has a track record of excellence, and I thoroughly enjoy their games. They have yet to dissappoint me. This why I trust them.

Without getting too far into this: game design isn't that simple. Would you enjoy a "feature" where you walked forward by repeatedly tapping a single button or key to take each individual step? There are practical limitations on every proposed feature. Every feature must pull its weight - and the corollary to that is that every feature has a weight to pull. For example, each skill added to the skill list carries a cost in the following:

- Game balance
- Development time
- Playtesting time
- Computer memory
- Space in the player's mental model of the game
- The level cap
- Skill-specific perks
- Skill trainers
- Skill lore
- Probably some other stuff I haven't even thought of

These aren't trivial issues, and we still don't know for certain how Bethesda has addressed them. While I don't think the removal of hand-to-hand was as clear-cut as, say, the removal of Mysticism (which had huge mental model problems) I think what we'll eventually see is that hand-to-hand based character concepts just weren't enough to justify the time it would have cost to do well.

Exactly. If you read my long rant thats precisely what i was trying to convey: until we are able to test the game for ourselves, all of this is presumption, nothing more. It seems that quite a few members have adopted an assumed clairevoyance as to how the game will pan out on both sides of the argument.

You mean, other than the Monks of the Two-Moons-Dance of Elsywer being martial-arts masters (because mastery of the body is mastery of the soul, or something like that), and the ideas caught on throughout the rest of Tamriel? Not all of Tamriel is European... just High Rock, Skyrim, and Northwestern Cyrodiil.

It's particularly amusing that just a post earlier, you pointed out some purported irony, and you came into this thread to wax eloquently about how people who criticize design decisions bear the blame for any negative responses they might get because of their insulting language.....

I really do need to learn when to quit. I just get annoyed too easily.

Back on subject.... what they'd have to remove is independence from Steam, Valve and other DRM attempts that block me from accessing my legally purchased license of Skyrim.

I hope they don't add an absurdly restrictive E.U.L.A.s. (Which all DRM that is more than 1-time falls under)

Who here has read or seen Stephen King's Misery? (The Film Version stars Kathy Bates). LOLOLOLOL :flamethrower:

Someone who HAS seen it, chime in and explain the outrageous relevance. lol

"You Killed Misery! :flame: Bring her back, Mr. Man!!" :gun: