I lol'd on the first things you said but really, it's their game, they can change it how they want, it's allways been like this, alwaaaays.
And on the removal of said skills, anyone can run and jump right?, so it doesn't mean anything, if you want super speed, well there's macigal clothing for that, want to jump higher, cast a spell or use feather boots or w/e..and they already explained to us, why there's (probably) no spellmaking, It's because they want to focus on the spells they have, and make them as awesome and versitile as humanly possible.

Have they removed the ability to fight with your fists entirely, or have they implemented perks that treat it as a weapon branch just like axes and maces?

I think more people just want to keep an open mind rather than dogmatically hold the position of "changed features = horrible game".

Back when Oblivion was in development the uproar that axes and blunts were merged and spears were out convinced a lot of people that the game would have absolutely no virtue what-so-ever. While it was tempting to believe the zealotry, I kept an open mind anyway. I was disappointed. The funny thing was, I wasn't disappointed by all the things the pessimists told me were going to be disappointing. I was disappointed by things that no-one really predicted.

The reality is none of us really know how this is going to play out, and most people want to wait and see before taking a dogmatic stance on Skyrim being "ruined" or not.

First: I agree with what the mods have already said... your use of common insults and overall tone don't bode well for the thread. But anyway...

It's funny. I've often wondered the opposite. My thread would start something like this:

"It seems like no matter what they announce has been taken out [or changed], certain people here always [get histerical and claim the sky is falling]."

Overall, the things they've removed/changed don't seem to bother me at all. And I don't understand what's wrong with that opinion...? It's not a "pro-whatever-bethesda-decide-to-do" mindset, either. The changes just don't strike me as game-breaking and -- without getting into the arguments -- in most cases actually seem to hold logic. No doubt the game is shaping up to be very different from past iterations. But I don't see that as a bad thing.

Edit: As for the suggestion that optimists would even defend Beth making a linear game... that's obvious rhetoric and hyperbole.

Wherever the line does reside, that would obviously be way on the other side... and way beyond defensible.

I have thought that too. Its very probable now that spells have multiple ways of being cast and affect the environment and have secondary effects beside damage (i.e. a slow effect for frost etc.) that spellmaking would just have been too difficult to implement.
Nevertheless, it is the one feature of TES that got me hooked on the series. The inherent freedom of it.
I shall sorely miss it and lament its passing even though there may be a logical and unavoidable reason.

Those who annoys me most are the ones who have to go in and say that everything is fine in every thread. It's a real mood killer for me.

If there are threads I don't care about, I don't go in and say, "Hey dude relax, Bethesda knows whats good for you."

You know, becouse I'm not taking joy in peoples sufferings. Do you?

You know who you are.

I find most of the skills superfluous. I'm hoping the next game will feature one skill/attribute "Health". Everything else will be under the hood - much more organic IMO

What? You miss swords? Well, what did swords really do? They reduced health, so they just cut out the middleman.
Restoration? Alchemy? They increased health. Buh-bye middleman hello less restrictive, unique perk tree!
And who designs a character and says "I'm going to talk and sell things and hit things dead." Don't all characters do that?? Soo redundant.
I suppose they'll have to account for stamina and magic, but that could be handled under what I'm calling the uberperk.

Seriously, they are so on track with Skyrim I am wetting my pants and building an altar in my house. You guys did know that the game has dragons right? And yelling? And 13 types of ore?

Y'all be cryin' when I'm sprinting around Skyrim ninjastyle, decked out with my sweet DLC, murdering generic NPCs left and right!

And this is why I think most people complaining don't think it trough.

Acrobatics and athletics has been removed because keeping them would be incredibly broken in the current leveling system, you would be able to level up just by running in circles and jumping. I'm certain most of their effects are still in as perks under light armor or sneak...
This sounds perfectly logical to me.

As for spellmaking, opinions can be more diverse. It's removed, because with the new spellmaking system it wouldn't work, and it certainly would require an entire redesign of the system. They achieved a half-success with the spell combos I think.
Personally this "magical Legos" feeling always annoyed me, so now we might get more diverse spells, but that's my opinion others might think otherwise.

I want to address DW as bring an early feature that shaped the game.


It wasn't


DW was implemented late, so let's take some known facts

Attributes were in skyrim early in development

Dragons had 2 years of dev time

Horses weren't ridable until recently

spell combining wasn't possible until recently (Beth made it happen)

When DW was added (late it wasn't even a significantly combed over feature until bethesda "realized how nice it was to dual wield")

Speculation
Alot of things got changed around, at this point perks already existed because attributes were removed so that's to speculate a combat system was already in along with magic (because perks are for skills)

Things get changed around and even Beth themselves say they like to "experiment" and when you experiement the outcome isnt always garunteed, so that blows the he'll out of the notion that "Bethesda always knows what they are doing"

he new attribute system is actually good news to me. Believe it or not, I absolutely hated the leveling system in previous games. (More so Oblivion than Morrowind)
I'm glad Bethesda is trying something different. I hope this new way to level will fix more issues than it's causing.

What I don't like, is the lack of variety. I became a TES fan because I found a large epic world that allowed me to be whoever I wanted to be. Personally, I want more weapon variety. If a flail is going to act like a claymore in both speed and dps, then why take it out? A spear does add strategic options in the game. It has the farthest reach, no? What about crossbows? What if you made it so they were already pulled back? Longbows charge and release while crossbows release then charge when fired. Throwing weapons can be launched much quicker than bows. The list can in fact go on with how each weapon can strategically be used over another. I really hope they reconsider on future titles. :tes:

Nothing. Whatever Beth gives me on 11.11.11 i'll be happy with.

TBF (true bethesda fans) will probably love anything served to them and ferociously defend a game they haven't play,
On the other hand non TBF should not be worried when they read about things chopped out , if you don't like what you read simply don't buy it and give it a 0/10 in metacritic / amazon and the likes .
What bethesda shall tell us is how the [censored] do they know what people used and what they didn't in their previous games , did SI securom contained some rootkit ?

This. Very much.

Also I have my doubts that there is a large percentage of people that actually, truly, cared enough about H2H to make such a fuss over it. I'm sure there is a small niche of players out there that truly used and loved H2H and will miss seeing it gone, but I think most folks complaining about it are just complaining to complain. /shrug



Every game ever made has been a "ruined" piece of junk according to internet forums. :teehee:

I'm more surprised by everyone else being so surprised they are changing things up so much. So far each main line Elder Scrolls title has been a bit of a "reset and re-think" in terms of gameplay and mechanics. Each game is its own experience, with its own faults and triumphs. Removing one feature, or changing something isn't going to make me quit loving the Elder Scolls series.

The level of lol of this post is staggering and I'm tempted to say "if they served you a steaming pile of poo would you feel the same?"

I mean I'm less of a fan because I'm concerned about the game I love, holy shi.....


Super disclaimer/ strawman denier: I did not say skyrim is a steaming pile of ooo

This!
They have removed the skills, not the mechanisms.

As far as I know, you can still walk, run, jump and swim in this game.^^
And mysticism is really just a word that has been removed. ALL spells of mysticism are moved to other schools!
And also, the way they said Hand-to-Hand is gone clearly indicates that just the skill is gone, not the possibility to use your hands.

But, there are a few things I don't agree with Bethesda on, but not enough for me to get upset at all. The things they have added more than makes up for the things removed!

Xarnac the Wise...
Removing hand to hand combat (assuming the combat and not just the skill is out) is the first thing that's really disappointed me. I love options and variety. I've always wanted some decent bar fights in an rpg. We won't get any Morrowindish bouncer quests and I have no idea how someone will play as a monk, now. An entire class has been removed.
If it's gone, it must have something to do with the new combat system. I can't really see how they clash, though. Why not have left and right fist and some takedowns? I guess animations could get complicated with the breadth of enemy sizes. Meh. I never used it too often, but I feel for those who did. It's a bummer.

Edit: Many people think that it was only the skill for hand to hand (and some other skills) that were removed and not the actual gameplay. This would be okay, but how would you improve those aspects of your character? Aren't all perks assigned to skills? I thought they were pretty clear about that. Maybe that has changed? If there are perks for hand to hand, acrobatics, etc., how many are there? Are there at least three perks to increase speed, jumping, and others? I guess we'll have to wait to find out more.

I've been a devoted fan since Arena. However, I've also...or at least I hope I have....remained objective. There are certain things that Beth does better than any other games I've played. The open endedness, the environments, some of the NPC's that we've met along the way. Personally, I think the series took a turn for the worse, following DF. MW was very good, but a step back from DF. Oblivion had tremendous potential, but gameplay issues torpedoed it.

I don't like the streamlining. I want more in my games, not less. I enjoy building a character and having some life in quests. Some drama in the MQ is also desirable. Skyrim, at this point, seems to be streamlining yet again. I still hold out hope for it, but I doubt it will be a step in the direction that most long time fans desire.

The reason is simple. Money. That's what it comes down to and I'm not blaming Beth one bit. They made deep RPG's the first couple of times and got most of the way there with MW. But they were a small shop back then. They've since grown tremendously and now, as they become larger, have more of a responsibility to driving as much revenue as they can. A game like DF would probably confuse or not land very well with today's youth. Today's kids, mine included, are looking for a game they can jump into and start playing. The slow methodical dungeon crawls are a thing of the past. By streamlining, Beth is able to appeal to more folks, which drives more sales, which makes them more money. It svcks for long time fans like myself...but we have mods that can bring some of that back. It's great for new fans to jump into the series and find enjoyment and entertainment.

It's a shame, the lore is the best I've ever seen with any game. The community, especially the modders, are simply amazing. It's just a tough spot for fans and Beth to be in. You're never going to please everyone, but you have to try and please the largest number of folks possible, in order to drive the most revenue.

It's not certain, but it is unlikely that actual hand-to-hand combat is gone. The skill is removed (and likely rolled into 1-handed), but that is all that we know. I can't think of any game where you kill things where you could not be equipped to do damage. Shooters will either give you a knife, or unlimited pistol ammo. Since it is possible for all of your weapons to break, you fists would be your ultimate fall-back option. Since they already combined maces, axes, longswords, and daggers into the same skill (all which are used differently), putting a fist in there wouldn't be too outlandish.

What sort of PC costs tens of thousands of dollars?? :/

I suppose maybe I just have a very different definition of "streamlining" than what folks on this forum have.

To me streamlining is what BW does, where they remove everything that doesn't involve pushing the "awesome button". Remove inventory, remove exploration, remove character development.

To me when I see Beth adding things like a Perks system, creating unique hand crafted dungeons, revamping combat to be more complex, adding alternative fast travel methods, improving mounted horses, adding secondary crafting options, etc. That just doesn't scream out to me "streamlining" or "money grab".

Its pretty obvious to me Beth is making the game they want to make, with as much care and TLC as they can unlike most other game developers today that just recycle the same game every year and completely cut (instead of revamp) any and everything that might not have worked perfectly the first time.

The kind a dumb (space) would buy.

We learned in January that 3 skills were cut. You're acting like its always something "new" on this long list, when its really not.

I am upset. And I agree with the OP, I see this trend where at first people are like "OH NO!" and then become the staunchest defenders of Todd Howard's decisions.

No H2H? I'm not surprised, the dev leader seems to have a habit of cutting out anything that needed to be fixed. "Hmm, I might actually need to be creative to fix H2H and turn it into a viable combat system! Lulz, not! I'll just omit it from the game entirely, problem solved!"

Says who?
I for one doubt that very much. I dont think we will be seeing perks to increase jump height, or perks for unarmed combat.
Perks are tied to skills, they dont just perk up something arbitrary that has nothing to do with skills.
Having a set jump height would help in lazy level design anyway, so I think it is logical that if you cant jump something at the start of the game, you never will be able to. We already saw a lot of that kind of lazy level design in Oblivion gates and the dungeons of that game.
Im afraid the true open world that Morrowind and Daggerfall had are gone for good.

On mystisicm, again, says who?
Mystisicm in Oblivion was already a hollowed out shell of the skill it was in Daggerfall and Morrowind. So instead of making it useful, it is cut entirely and (most) spells regrouped. This means the skill is gone. I dont care that (most) effects have been regrouped, this is entirely beside the point. More skills = good, less skills = bad. Less skills reduce replayability, reduce roleplaying and reduce customisation. Redundancy is a good thing, that is why nature loves it so much. Two kidneys, two eyes, two lungs etc.

No, I dont think that perks are this magic thing that will solve anything. Anything removed? Oh there is a perk for that, seems to be the general consensus. While I seriously doubt now we can even hit people with our fists.