.........
So instead of making it useful, it is cut entirely and (most) spells regrouped. This means the skill is gone. I dont care that (most) effects have been regrouped, this is entirely beside the point. More skills = good, less skills = bad. Less skills reduce replayability, reduce roleplaying and reduce customisation. Redundancy is a good thing, that is why nature loves it so much. Two kidneys, two eyes, two lungs etc.
..

Says who?
I for one doubt that very much. I dont think we will be seeing perks to increase jump height, or perks for unarmed combat.
Perks are tied to skills, they dont just perk up something arbitrary that has nothing to do with skills.
Having a set jump height would help in lazy level design anyway, so I think it is logical that if you cant jump something at the start of the game, you never will be able to. We already saw a lot of that kind of lazy level design in Oblivion gates and the dungeons of that game.
Im afraid the true open world that Morrowind and Daggerfall had are gone for good.

On mystisicm, again, says who?
Mystisicm in Oblivion was already a hollowed out shell of the skill it was in Daggerfall and Morrowind. So instead of making it useful, it is cut entirely and (most) spells regrouped. This means the skill is gone. I dont care that (most) effects have been regrouped, this is entirely beside the point. More skills = good, less skills = bad. Less skills reduce replayability, reduce roleplaying and reduce customisation. Redundancy is a good thing, that is why nature loves it so much. Two kidneys, two eyes, two lungs etc.

No, I dont think that perks are this magic thing that will solve anything. Anything removed? Oh there is a perk for that, seems to be the general consensus. While I seriously doubt now we can even hit people with our fists.

Less redundancy in UI, more complexity in game; I will be very happy from this.

Their decision to 'streamline' the attributes from 18 down to three: Combat, Magic, and Rogue. And then in the next game to remove attributes entirely.

Their decision to 'streamline' the attributes from 18 down to three: Combat, Magic, and Rogue. And then in the next game to remove attributes entirely.

edit - didn't realise really devoted fan was censored - so lets just say - extremely optomistic fan : P

It seems like no matter what they announce has been taken out (I'm not going to list them here), certain people here always defend their decisions. Now we have just found out hand to hand has also been removed, and yet again people are lining up to justify why it doesn't matter, and nay, is even a good thing.
How far would Bethesda have to 'streamline' this game, before the pro-whatever-bethesda-decide-to-do camp would actually start to get annoyed? Is that even possible?
It just seems like all meaningful discussion here gets killed by people who defend every decision they make to the death, no matter what it is. All threads become a battle between those who actively question every decision they make, and those who defend every decision they make.
Surely the questioning of these decisions are what make this forum a worthwhile thing?

p.s - I think some decent reasonable discussion can be had on this matter, from both camps. Mods, please don't kill this thread - it might provide some insight for both groups into the thinking of the other : )

For me to get really upset they would have to remove the open world sandbox aspect of the game.

Take this to the bank:
Bethesda owns all the rights to this game. You have no ownership whatsoever in it. You have no vested rights. You have no interest in this game other than you want to buy it from them.

That said, Bethesda could turn ES into Tetris and people would exist that would support it. Why? Because Tetris is fun and people like it. An ES Tetris game might be nice. The bottom line of all these silly arguments it that Bethesda can do whatever they want with their game and you can just buy it or don't. They don't have any obligation to care what you think.

You can bring up the topic of money if you want, but even then, Bethesda doesn't need your money specifically. Especially not if there are 3 people willing to replace you if they change it.

I hate the current trend of streamlining games, but so far nothing Bethesda have taken out really concerns me too much. It's mostly the stuff they're adding that concerns me more.

At the end of the day, they give us full freedom to mod which will make up for any minor poor changes they make.

I've yet to see people say "oh noes Skyrim is going to be Crap because of X features are gone"


so excuse me if I have a hard time with those bashing the people who don't like the descisions calling them whiners over "superflous" features and thinking just because someone feels strongly about a particular aspect and the other party doesnt, that someone is somehow mentally handicapped.

They cannot 'just make it into tetris.' They have mortgages and kids that need school tuition.

This is a weird notion that does not make much sense to me.
In a very real way Bethesda do not own their game, and they most certainly cannot do whatever they want with it.
We are the consumers, it is us that they need to please, and realistically it is our game.

For a real world example: remember 'new coke'? Or if you are too young, google it.

It is the consumers that need to be pleased, it is the consumer that pays the bills and provides the paycheck and if anything Bethesda is bound hands and feet by the demands of the market.
They cannot 'just make it into tetris.' They have mortgages and kids that need school tuition.

It about how you present what it is that you are upset about. Here's two presentations of a given disappointment, that will give wildly different reactions:

1. "I'm dissappointed with the removal of stats, they should have given them meaning in dialog or approaches, it's true that they were redundant, but they didn't have to be."

2. "They removed stats, Skyrim is now a linear action game for babies."

If you make an exaggerated hyperbole reaction, you will get an equal but opposite reaction in return.

This, and a little bit more. If skills drop below 15, I'm done. Thats way too low and too simplified.

15 skills would be acceptable, but 14 would not? :shrug:

why 15?

This is a weird notion that does not make much sense to me.
In a very real way Bethesda do not own their game, and they most certainly cannot do whatever they want with it.
We are the consumers, it is us that they need to please, and realistically it is our game.

For a real world example: remember 'new coke'? Or if you are too young, google it.

It is the consumers that need to be pleased, it is the consumer that pays the bills and provides the paycheck and if anything Bethesda is bound hands and feet by the demands of the market.
They cannot 'just make it into tetris.' They have mortgages and kids that need school tuition.

. How much discussion will there be in a thread that starts off with an insult? I seriously doubt this thread will last very long.

Bethesda has certain obligations to its shareholders, but no obligation to consumers to continue releasing a kickass TES game every 5 years, etc.

If they were to make some poor decisions, the consumers can simply choose not to buy the game. Or, maybe even more consumers will buy the game if it is slightly "dumbed down." I would hate it personally, but in a free market economy, they can do whatever the hell they want, up to and including crapping on a franchise beloved by diehard fans. This already happens every weekend in movie theaters.

I love it when mods are wrong

Anyway, who cares about H2H? IN MY OPINION It was annoying and redundant.

Day dark I've seen people make reasonable stances about what they dont like and alternatives/improvements and they are still treated like idiots on the forums please...