edit - didn't realise really devoted fan was censored - so lets just say - extremely optomistic fan : P

It seems like no matter what they announce has been taken out (I'm not going to list them here), certain people here always defend their decisions. Now we have just found out hand to hand has also been removed, and yet again people are lining up to justify why it doesn't matter, and nay, is even a good thing.
How far would Bethesda have to 'streamline' this game, before the pro-whatever-bethesda-decide-to-do camp would actually start to get annoyed? Is that even possible?
It just seems like all meaningful discussion here gets killed by people who defend every decision they make to the death, no matter what it is. All threads become a battle between those who actively question every decision they make, and those who defend every decision they make.
Surely the questioning of these decisions are what make this forum a worthwhile thing?

p.s - I think some decent reasonable discussion can be had on this matter, from both camps. Mods, please don't kill this thread - it might provide some insight for both groups into the thinking of the other : )

Their decision to 'streamline' the attributes from 18 down to three: Combat, Magic, and Rogue. And then in the next game to remove attributes entirely.

I find a lot of it is just people that didnt use X feature, dont mind if its cut. Others might have tried them and it was just not their thing, but when mechanics that have been in several TES games and are big gameplay mechanics get cut (or may be cut), its a problem. People should be more accepting of the fact that not everybody played X ES game like they did, while others played almost every way. The problem is when people aggressively advocate cutting features for no reason, or just becasue they personally didnt use it. If we got rid of every feature this person or that person didnt like/use, then we'd soon have a linear action game.

I hate the current trend of streamlining games, but so far nothing Bethesda have taken out really concerns me too much. It's mostly the stuff they're adding that concerns me more.

At the end of the day, they give us full freedom to mod which will make up for any minor poor changes they make.

I'm a "good to the last drop, defend Bethesda to the end, fan boy" myself and the Construction Set is the "be all to end all". It doesn't matter a whole lot to me what Bethesda does with it's gameplay mechanics because I get the most moddable game EVER. Even if i didn't though, Bethesda still brings more to the table than any other developer.

As far as I'm concerned Bethesda is the best of the best and like anyone i respect they get the benefit of the doubt until they let me down which has not happened yet( i started w/ MW).

They?d have to take out free exploration and the ten races.

The word that tripped the autocensor is in the autocensor due to people using it in an insulting and derogatory manner. Which seems to have been the intention here, actually. How much discussion will there be in a thread that starts off with an insult? I seriously doubt this thread will last very long.

As to the topic, I want to see what they've done. People on both sides are speculating without a lot of information. Right at the moment no one can prove the devs have ruined the game and life in this sector of the universe forever by removing or changing whatever they've removed or changed. No one can prove the devs have ushered in a new golden age by removing or changing whatever they've removed or changed. Until there is more information I don't see the use of getting upset about anything. To use a different studio and a different game as an example; nothing they've released about Skyrim has indicated they've moved to restrict classes, retcon past games, change the lore, or change the art direction to hot-rod-samurai over the top anime combat. I'll reserve judgement until we get more information.

I believe those upset at the removals aren't seeing what is getting added. Too much is getting added to say the game is getting streamlined. Sure, we're down to 18 skills, but skills are something totally different than a number on a slider thanks to perks. Now a skill is a huge thing with lots of variations within one skill. Then add the crafting and everything else we've seen, and I find it really hard to say that this is 'streamlined'.

Not that I don't dislike them removing unarmed combat as a main combat style, but I can wait and see why they did it.

I don't get the rational that just because things got added means the things removed are negligable, adding things is in this case for Skyrim a good thing but that does not null the fact that things are going missing is ok

I'm still saying complexity does not always equals with depth, streamlining the system can still hold it's depth.

That said I could justify most of the changes, they make sense to me why they happened, other than "catering to casual gamers".

Except hand-to-hand, I just simply don't care about that...

Huh, there are quite a lot of people who complain about what they do...

If they only took things away and didn't add stuff, considering the amount of stuff added, I find it hard to be upset. It doesn't mean I agree with every decision, but it's not nearly enough to make me upset.

you start off insulting true bethesda fans, and expect this thread to get somewhere?

its obvious you're a fairly typical person in society.

anyway... im happy with skyrim from what i've heard... so the hand-to-hand skill is gone, but that doesnt mean fighting with your fists is cut out, vsions even seemed to confirm that in the usual subtly cryptic dev-manner.

they have done SO much to make skyrim incredible, so what if they cut out a few minor things so they could dedicate their time to the more awesome aspects?

i've grown to accept that bethesda makes whatever changes they feel is necessary for each game, its not like they're trying to ruin anything, i mean, look at how much lore they've created!

the elder scrolls' level of detail in the lore is up there with lord of the rings and harry potter, the big ones!

i think they deserve a little trust and faith from their fans... hell, for the people who prefer to spend tens of thousands of dollars just to be able to play the game on PC, they give unlimited freedom with the modding capabilities... and they're even trying to get microsoft and sony to work with them to get a certain level of mods onto the console versions!

if you want everyone to get pissed at bethesda for taking out the WORDS "hand-to-hand", "athletics", "acrobatics" and "mysticism", despite leaving everything that made them up, still in the game... then you're just extremely ungrateful.

I don't like the removal of hand to hand or the removal of attributes, along with a few other less significant things.

I mean I don't expect those that don't care to show sympathy for something they don't care about, but when you start using rationals like I didn't use it it was useless, or I'm glad they took it out, I never used it, or its for the better. thats when it gets annoying....


You didn't use it, but NPC's did, mixing up the variety of enemies and fighting types you contended with.......


How are you glad they took out something that didnt effect you in any shape or form.....


And no one can say why "its for the better" because such is utterly subjective

So you dont like it that there could be good reasons for the changes Bethesda implements ?

Removeal of hand-to-hand, meh. I always used swords in TES games. The only reason to use anything else was to train the strength stat.

Too much censorship indeed. I thought you expressed something worse and could well have gotten more upset about your title !

On topic: Seamless world =P

If they followed DA2's example and added an Awesome Button, I'd be very upset and no longer a customer.

So far from the list of things they have confirmed removed or changed I'm not to upset and I think the game will be fine. What I'm looking for mainly is a sandbox to live my fantasy personality in just like MW and OB. So far i don't see Skyrim having a problem with that.

Yeah, I think it comes down to this. For example, I never used horses. And don't plan to. I wouldn't have minded if they had been cut.
However, I can see how some people want them, and I can respect that. I see no reason to go around saying "Finally! Was about time they got rid of this useless, redundant traveling method." (for clarification: horses are in Skyrim).

I don't really get what kind of person it takes to be so spiteful; to enjoy the sight of someone getting their lolipop taken away. :shrug:


That's the other side. Some people can get lost in their thoughts about how great something new is going to be. I can't.
We haven't seen the game yet, and have no idea how the new features are going to work out.
Destructable economy? Well, sounds interesting. But how will I be able to use it? How will I use it? No possible way to know yet.
280 perks? Well, could be a lot. Could be very little, depending on the perks. No possible way to know yet.
However, I can perfectly imagine how I can not use spears, hand2hand combat, how I will not have any attributes, and so on.
Due to the promises before the launch of Oblivion (Radiant AI, soft shadows, etc), Bethesda is partially to blame for this doubt. But it's also a general attitude.

There are a few decisions I wont defend, such as removing H2H and the cut to 18 skills. This just doesn't make much sense to me. However, this doesn't mean the game is complete crap. I mean who honestly picked athletics or acrobatics as main skills in Oblivion or Morrowind? Those skills were pointless to have as your main skills. And honestly, I never heard anyone claim love for Mysticism until we heard it was gone, then everyone suddenly loved it and it was their favorite skill <_<

I get your point though, there are some people that will defend everything Bethesda does no matter what. I'm not happy with everything I've seen so far, but 92% is pretty freaking amazing. I really think all of the amazing things we've heard outshines all of the negative, not to defend the negative in any way.

@Faulgor Hopefully the E3 demo will turn you :teehee: and hopefully Bethesda learned from thier mistake with Oblivion. Does anyone remember if Todd showed features that didn't make it to the game in the Fallout 3 demo?

They are not "stremlining" just becuase they remove small things, they are moving it somewhere else that fits their mechanics better now stop whining! :yucky:

Old stuff gets removed from games all the time and new ones come in. Spears got removed people raged, same for Werewolves, Crossbows, Colovian Fur Helms, Mysticism, Athletics, Acrobatics, Attributes and now Hand To Hand. It's completely normal and I don't have a problem with it because if my favorite skill or feature was removed I'd be pretty disappointed.



Agree I don't see what's wrong with saying that certain features in Oblivion S.u.c.k.e.d. Oblivion had flaws, The Level Scaling wasn't done properly I mean do I need to point at Goblin Warlords or the fact that it's useless to level up past 25

I've yet to see people say "oh noes Skyrim is going to be Crap because of X features are gone"


so excuse me if I have a hard time with those bashing the people who don't like the descisions calling them whiners over "superflous" features and thinking just because someone feels strongly about a particular aspect and the other party doesnt, that someone is somehow mentally handicapped.

For the really optimistic fan I have this pessimistic view that if they turned it into a linear platform type game surprisingly like Sonic the Hedgehog there would still be people claiming it is the best thing ever and that running around and collecting rings is very RPG.
This is the general impression I do get on this forum.
It really doesnt matter what is removed, how much the game is gimped and how much it is dumbed down to placate the FPS crowd..
There will always be those who claim it is the best thing to happen to elder scrolls yet.

I mean, how anyone can seriously defend no spellmaking and no acrobatics or athletics is beyond me, so since we have already passed the line of credulence I see no limits in sight.

There are always going to be people who blindly agree with people, just like there are always going to be people who get upset over any little change. That's human nature. What frustrates me is that both of these groups can't see the other side of the arguement.

Spellmaking would be great. Naming your own spells was always a fun part of being a mage, as well as difining your own magic style. But, since we no so little about the magic system, it might have been removed because they didn't know how to get created spells to have multiple ways to cast, it might have been for balance issues, or something else that we don't know about yet. I'm not saying that it's removal is a good thing, but it is unlikely that they did it to "appease the FPS crowd." It was a completely optional feature that wouldn't cause people to not buy the game.

It was likely decided early on that they wanted certain things in the game (Dual-wielding, perks, dragons). Somethings are going to need to be cut/changed to make those things work. With knowing very little about the game mechanics, I choose to venture on with cautious optimism. As the date approaches, more information will be available, and the reasons (good or bad) why all of these things were changed/cut will hopefully become apparent.