Oblivion is an excellent game, if modded. :thumbsup:

i judge games that can be modded by how much i have to mod them. i had to mod oblivion ALOT. with morrowind it was texture packs, lighting mod, horatios npc mod (makes a huge difference in npc behavior) some silly mods like shop mods, cortex scripted spells, CM partners mod, couple of weapons and armor mods and of course GCD. i also used a variety of beast addons over the years of which i think piratelords was probably the best. there were some other mods that im probably forgetting but i never got above 50 mods at one point. at a mininum i had at least 120 mods for oblivion and that was the absolute bare bottom cause i usually ended up putting some mod back that i though i could live without.

bethesda is getting much better though. fallout 3 didnt require that many mods and new vegas i could happily play without any mods. in this regard im very optimistic about skyrim cause they are reversing course in my eyes.

as far as complaints most people didnt like some of the simplification like fast travel and quest arrows constantly holding your hand. level scaling was atrocious although morrowind had its issues with being becoming to godlike for many areas. the world itself was very bland and the topography was horrible, you could see the tower from any point on the map. and of course they didnt remove khajits or argonians. :sadvaultboy: sadly they appear to still be in skyrim.

edit: yes i know new vegas was done by obsidian.

This doesn't mean that it was the best example of the Elderscrolls; (Though... I cannot discount that it may be considered such by its designers. :shrug: It depends on what their idea of Elder Scrolls really is).

I prefer their earlier attempts, and I should mention that I had never heard of Bethesda prior to them releasing Oblivion. Oblivion was my first Bethesda game.
(In hindsight, I remember http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/1024430658-00.jpg when it came out, but I never played it myself, and did not know they had created it at the time).

There was a lot wrong with it, so much that I've never really been able to get into the game until this year, placing a hell of a lot of restrictions on my actions.

But now I've played it like this, it's awesome.

Not using Fast Travel makes it so much cooler - I was riding across a road, when I was attacked by a bandit bowman. I started attacking him, but he wasn't shooting me, he was shooting something behind me, to my left. After killing him, I turned round and saw a black bear. I went to attack it, and then saw its name - Spriggan's Black Bear.

My Level 11 character ran like HELL

As for Daggerfall to Morrowind: Morrowind introduced practically the entire metaphysics and related lore, in addition it had some 13 factions that were rather fleshed out (compared to Daggerfall's lots and lots o' quests factions), and it also had a hand crafted world. It attempted to add to the series, as compared to only stripping from it.

What I said is true And if you read the post carefully I talk about what might motivate somebody to criticize something. I will also take the time to point out that I didn't say the criticism was unfounded or untrue. I did however say that some of it may be trivial if the person feels they need to "balance" appraisal. Since I personally have criticized Oblivion in this very thread, don't you think it would be counter intuitive to say that my own criticism isn't serious?

Sorry if that post bothered you, didn't mean to offend anyone

I personally know people who have admitted to me that they have tendencies like what I mentioned in that thread. I also know persons who have admitted to me they like to argue just for the sake of it, even if they don't believe they are correct. Since I am a person who likes debate and being a teacher I come across many opportunities to examine what motivates people to express their opinion about a subject. My information isn't erroneous.

Oblivion is a good game to me, but it's just not a good Elder Scrolls game. It lacks the challenge, the atmosphere, the immersion, the sense of being in a new land, and the innovation that most other Elder Scrolls games brought to the table. Or at least in my opinion.

As a straight up RPG, I was satisfied with it, but as the sequel to the greats of Daggerfall and Morrowind, it just couldn't hold a candle. Again, in my opinion.

Oh. And not to mention vanilla Oblivion after release is one of the buggiest games I've ever played (before someone brings it up, New Vegas wasn't buggy to me at all). And the fact that it has other inherent flaws which even mods can't remove.

But all in all, like I said, good game, but not a good Elder Scrolls game. In my opinion.

I entered the Elder Scrolls through Morrowind (and modded it quite a bit with mostly graphics-related mods like Better Bodies/Heads/clothes, etc). I also have played Oblivion. While I prefer Morrowind (it felt bigger and had a more unique setting and atmosphere), I still love Oblivion as well. =)

I understand what you are saying, but I think people are a bit frustrated and really care about the future of ES games. They feel it may be going a different direction than the previous ES games, so they are voicing their concerns. It is reasonable to be concerned about a series you really like. :happy:

However, I understand that it does sometimes seem lots of negative comments, but that's because each ES game has a different flavor and taste and each game appeals to different people. People also prefer some things in one game and can handle flaws but may not tolerate different kind of flaws in another. For example, there are flaws in Morrowind I didn't like (stiff NPC's, D+D stats) and there are flaws in Oblivion I didn't like (psychic guards, annoying journal). I liked the atmosphere and variety of guilds/organizations and quests in Morrowind, while I liked the more action-oriented-ness and Radiant AI (even if it is flawed) from Oblivion.

There are some people that prefer Morrowind and there are some that prefer Oblivion. And, of course, there are some that love both, like me.

I would not worry about it. If you want to think positively, then don't let others bother you, then. Just focus on the part that WE ARE ALL part of a big community that loves Elder Scrolls games and celebrate the fact that we are anxiously anticipating the next big ES game. :foodndrink:

That is unfair. You guys think that we older tes fans are haters. Well some of us are, but majority of us were simply dissapointed. I love TES and I wanted to like oblvion so much, but I couldn't. Oblivion failed to deliver the same tes feeling . Oblivion had a better fighting and magic system over all. Stealth was more fun and so was the new Radiant AI, despite it's overhyped nature. Morrowind for instance had it's share of flaws, but i could overlook those easily. In oblivion Benthesa made few number of key design flaws that were so significant that they ruined the enjoyment almost entirely. Atleast that is how I feel. I don't wish to write a long list that would go into details, but in a nutshell:

1) Heavily level scaled gameworld (loot, npcs/monsters, quests ect). This lead to weird things like bandits using deadric weapons/armour, beating the arena champion at level 4 and so forth.
2) Hand holding feautures (quest compass and arrow, quest pop ups, fast travel etc.). This ruined the exploration feeling I loved in Morrowind.
3) Horrible user interface. Consoles and pc should have different uis.
4) Linear storytelling..so we have to save Martin, what if we don't want to? What if I want to help Necromances instead of Mages guild? I felt like i was on rails constantly.
5) Repetative oblivon realm and dungeons. I understand that the nature of this game limits how much detail one can put on a specific dungeon, but majority of the dungeons in oblivion were so freaking generic. They cried for more detail and uniqueness. I quess this level scaling is to be blamed for this feeling.
6) No guild restrictions or conflicts. A warrior without magic skills could end up leading mages' guild. Guilds didn't define your character.
7) generic setting. Its a tes game allright, but compared to morrowind, it didn't feel as unique.

I'm glad though that modder were able to fix some of those issues.

my 2 cents anyhow.

This [sort of/maybe] happened here with Diablo3 not to long ago; but it was a developer spat. Not exactly though (now that I think about it... It was a technical disagreement about design)

I've never seen this phenomenon myself, but in cases like Fallout and TES, the reasons are real enough. I have no strong feelings about the TES series (They are good games, but a lot of games are good). I can see flaws, and I can see the good aspects; and some of those overshadow the flaws ~but not all flaws are overshadowed. Overall I think the good well outweighs the bad in them, but some parts do disappoint. :shrug:
(Didn't stop me from buying it again last month :lmao:)

Why do we even have this thread here? This is the Skyrim forum, not Oblivion or Elder Scrolls series forums. Srsly.

All this does is invite the Morrowhiners to soapbox against Oblivion for not being Morrowind 2.0, the Oblividumbs come out to defend their beloved creation, the Daggerfailures to bash both games for various reasons such as spawning Morrowhiners and Oblividumbs, and the ARENerds to not show up to complain about how good it was "In the Old Days" :teehee:

This post is completely impartial, if misanthropic. I have no need to point out anyone being the above, as such people tend to identify themselves on their own readily enough when they see their group get named. :tongue:

*This post is not to be seen as insulting everyone who likes any of the mentioned games more than another, and is instead just a colorful acknowledgment of the assorted elements of the Elder Scroll's Broken Base's http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb.

I don't really think people hate Oblivion I just think when some people play Morrowind then play Oblivion it just feel completely different. But I think that is just how it is when you play a new game out the series I even have even seen people criticize Skyrim when it is not even out yet.

I wouldn't worry about people saying they "hate" the game if you love it that is all that matters


(sorry about all the edits I am new :biggrin: )

Welcome to the negative circle of gaming series. 1st game arrives=awesome. 2nd game arrives=wow better then first! years later.... wow second game svcks! why couldnt it be more like 1st game? 3rd game arrives...... and the cycle continues. :twirl:

You've also got to consider that, with no offense to any of you, this was actually a pretty exclusive community before oblivion made TES truly mainstream.

I think theres a factor of the hardcoe founders resenting this "invasion" of their world, if you will.

Maybe they hate it for what it meant and means, not what it is, which is a very very good game

Besides- forums exist to shout your opinion. So the loudest and most repeated shout is heard the most often.

People are not flaming that Oblivion was a bad game as a whole. Quite the contrary, they liked it and enjoyed it a great deal. But everyone (yes, everyone, even the most postively thinking people) found several or a dozen details or aspects that blemished the bigger picture, without which, in their opinion, it would have been THE game of games. These blemishes and the people that were annoyed by them the most can be classified into two categories. The first is the "Why did you kill the good stuff from Morrowind?" group. These people are the "previous generation" who entered the Elder Scrolls with Morrowind (I'm one of them, by the way :sweat: ), and since that was the game that "defined awesome" for them, they are very sensitive about any diffirence from it in Oblivion. The second group is what I would call "Hey look, they did it in other games. Why didn't you do it?". These people didn't like things like the decisions for graphics, cells, the handling of the combat and stealth systems and so on, because they believe they've "seen evidence" in other places that better things could be done, and would like the devs to be gods that can deliver divinity in the form of "THE perfect game", without realising how much effort it took them to deliver what they already did. And then there were things that neither group liked, like the obnoxious level-scaling.
But like I said, everyone enjoyed the game. The fact that it was the best-selling Elder Scrolls title to date more than proves it. But those two groups will allways exist, and they will allways complain... It's just natural :shrug:

My own personal likings and loathings in Oblivion:
I LIKED magicka regeneratin, physics, completely voiced-over dialogue, the combat system (a major improvement over Morrowind) and that you could buy houses.
I disliked the level-scaling (the way it was done, not the sheer fact that it was there), that there was really no reason to weapon-block instead of having a shield, poor selection of spells, stupid combat AI of companions ("OG! Tutius Vellucius sees Ogre. Tutius Vellucius go SMASHHHH!!!!!") and that god-awfull blue tint on Night-Eye.

Probably cause there aren't many Daggerfall fans in this place. To their eyes that would be the gold standard.

Just what do you mean by "you guys?" I never said all previous Elder Scrolls fans were haters of Oblivion. I did say that it appears that most of the harshest criticism seems to come from "SOME" of the most hardcoe Fans of the previous Elder Scrolls games.

Disappointment is fine, I was disappointed In just about everything you and others have mentioned here, but my disappointment didn't stop me from enjoying the game, just the same as the disappointment in I felt in Morrowind didn't stop me from enjoying it (although I never finished it...Long story). Different people like different things, but I have seen on these forums over and over and over, not only disappointment with Oblivion (which is fine) but also absolute hatred for it, as if it offered absolutely nothing for anyone, which is not the case. That is something that I take issue with.

On a side note: I managed to play Oblivion for over a year without any mods installed. I cannot say that for Morrowind, Fallout 3, or New Vegas. I am hoping that I can do that again with Skyrim.

Omnipresent main quest, level scaling.

I see this brought up all the time, and my explanation is that for everything Morrowind did differently from Daggerfall, it added even more to make up for it. Not to mention Morrowind has 10,000x the depth of Daggerfall which alone makes it the better game.

To stay on topic though: Oblivion is a great game...for a 2006 X360 game. For an Elder Scrolls game it's mind-bogglingly bad:

1) Complete lack of culture
2) Complete lack of verisimilitude (no functioning forts? Really? Where are all the farms? Why are all the mines abandoned?)
3) Psychic guards
4) Level scaling/ Loot scaling
5) Almost no handplaced artifacts
6) No dungeon variety
7) Shallow badly done dialogue
8) Horrible UI, especially on PC
9) Popups
10) Quest markers, fast travel, complete lack of immersive travel options
11) Annoying POI pointer-outer on the compass which ruined exploration almost completely
12) What new books were added were not up to previous games standards (thus MK being brought on for KotN)
13) Boring, uninteresting landscape
14) Over 100 immortal NPCs, most of them irrelevant to the main quest
15) Big red "this isn't yours" hand dumbs down thief game
16) Radient AI (lol)
17) Can't fail casting, alchemy
18) Mini-games replacing character skills
19) Drastic reduction in skills
20) Minor/Major system that was counterintuitive
21) 4 guilds and a pathetic Arena
22) No guild restrictions, requirements (non-mage becoming Arch Mage)
23) Can't delete spells
24) Can't name savegames without the in-game console
25) Annoying as hell physics

I could go on, but my point is...yeah Oblivion has flaws, and most of them are legitimate since a lot of them were addressed with Fallout 3 even, let alone Skyrim.

Hear hear!

I come to what I thought was the Skyrim forum, first thread I find is a question about who did what in Morrowind and now one about Oblivion.

Could someone point me to the Skyrim forums, please?

Personally i liked Oblivions medieval/European style. i Dont like Morrowinds Alien-like terrain at all.- same with Shivering Isles.

i agree. if someone wants to feel cool they will say that morrowind to oblivion is god to dirt.

in fact, the way i see it is on paper, morrowind is a better game (don't get me wrong it was the best of its time) but in practice oblivion is way better. it still is based around skills and leveling. its still pure rpg. i don't see why people complain about it being dumbed down because its a better game anyway and the character advancement works the same.

this coming from someone that played the crap out of morrowind when it came out. in fact i didn't even hear about oblivion until a month after it came out because i was twelve.
oh the days before i discovered the power of the internet.

You've got also to realise that the people behind the screen, they're not all teenagers. Right or wrong, the arguments coming from a lot of people saying they prefer Morrowind and why, are long, calm and well-argued. I could pin down two or three people ranting in order to feel like a "true" Elder Scrolls fan, whatever that entails, but not more.

Now, I do believe it boils down a lot to, well, what you look for in a game. I appreciated Oblivion. I loved Morrowind more, and I know why. I also get why being forced to explore a quirky landscape and to read dialogues containing various political and religious twists is not everybody's thing. *shrug*

Most of the things I disliked about Oblivion have already been stated, but since I'm posting here, I might as well give them again.

First: Less to explore. The game was technically bigger then morrowind(albeit barely), but the dungeons were basically the same ones just semi re-skinned. It always involved the same kind of set-up: Go through the dungeon, kill some mobs, get to the end, find a nice chest with leveled loot, rinse, repeat. Every now and then there might be hidden passageways, but once You came across even one or two of those, you'd pretty much seen them all.

Second: The leveled monsters, and the leveled loot. There was absolutely no reason not to go everywhere at level 1 as opposed to level 20 because the monsters you encounter(with maybe a few exceptions) were going to be the same level as you, always. No sense of danger, virtually at all. Also, the loot you would find in those places you explored, would always level with you. That svcks. I enjoy the option to risk my hide going into a higher level dungeon, sneaking past the mobs, and maybe grabbing a sword that is stronger then what I should have for that level. There was virtually none of that. BORING.

Third: The dumbed down skill system. I know a lot of people seem to be fans of the consolidation that occurred in Oblivion, and is now being furthered in Skyrim, but I'm not one of them. I like having multiple choices to choose from when I create my character. Example: Lumping axes into Blunt weapons? WTH. That's ridiculous! Getting rid of Medium armor! Why?

Fourth: Removing Levitation: Yes, this is one all in and of itself a dislike of mine. Levitation allowed for the sly, canny placement of hidden items all over the map. That was something I absolutely adored about Morrowind, was the fact that there was loot and interesting books, or notes EVERYWHERE, in the most obscure of hiding places. I was so disappointed that there was almost none of that in Oblivion. Especially considering some of the places in the game that just screamed "hidden loot" spots, but you knew there was none there because there was no way to get there without using the console to mod your acrobatics through the roof.

Fifth: Having to pay for official plug-ins. I can understand KoTN, but Horse armor? Bah. Morrowind had great Plug-ins(Fort firemoth, AoE arrows, Helm, etc etc), and it was free!

Sixth: On the same vein as #5: Only one expansion pack. Yes, SI was epic, but it wasn't more epic then Tribunal+Bloodmoon combined! Maybe better then either one of them(though I'd argue that with bloodmoon!), but not better then both, and all the DLC added with SI still didn't overcome that.

Seventh: A main quest that made you feel like once you started, you HAD to go right through it. Hell, a Main Quest that just felt rushed period. Once I started the Main Quest, there was virtually no point in it where I really felt, from a Roleplaying stance, that it was ok for me to stop and go do other things! Even starting the main quest made you feel like you had to start(finding Uriels bastard son). In Daggerfall and Morrowind(it's been so long, I don't remember much what Arena was like) I always felt comfortable in exploring some in between steps along the main quest(hell, morrowind encourages taking breaks, telling you to make a name for yourself elsewhere, better establish a cover identity, get stronger and find better weapons). In Oblivion, I barely explored at all until AFTER I was done the MQ because it didn't feel appropriate to ignore the Gates and demons storming Cyrodil in order to go off and explore.

Eighth: Magic System: Underpowered to start, over-powered at the end, and with that ridiculous regen ability. Just doesn't seem realistic to me. maybe thats because in almost every game I've played(Pen and Paper included), resting or potions were the only way to regenerate lost magic power. Oh, and the fact that you NEVER FAIL A SPELL. Cmon, seriously? Even the most powerful of magi have a spell that goes awry at times.

Ninth: That damnable quest marker that made the game easy mode. Pissed me off to no end. It's not like you could really ignore it without mods(Is there a mod to get rid of the Green arrow?). I loved Morrowinds system of giving you directions and then having to find the place yourself. It stimulates your(at least it does mine) sense of exploration, and achievement once you've found what you were looking for!

Tenth: The lack of true artifacts: Yes, there were a couple of unique items that could be termed artifacts, but nowhere near the scale of Morrowind. This goes back to #2 and the whole lousy leveling system. I know some people like to make the argument that Morrowinds artifacts ruined the game because you could find them at level 1 and vastly over-power yourself, but ya know what? That is up to the individual player. If they don't have the willpower to resist getting the good stuff right off the bat, thats their own fault. I myself have never even FOUND all the unique artifacts in Morrowind, because I stay away from them unless my travels take me there, and I've been playing Morrowind since release day.

There are other smaller issues but none really worth mentioning, as they were all workable with/around. Every game has it's minor issues and I can forgive those.

Honestly, I still enjoyed Oblivion, and once I get done re-playing Morrowind, I'm going to re-install Oblivion, and finally get around to installing the 15 Gigs or so worth of mods that a buddy d/led for me, including a massive graphical over-haul, and a fix to the afore-mentioned crappy level system, as well as tons of new quests and storylines. It was enjoyable, but there were just so many things wrong with it that stopped it from actually being a GREAT game. It was just a Good game.Nothing more.

Edit: After reading through the thread, I realized there were a few more things I had serious issue with. I guess I had just forgotten about them because it's been 2 years since I last played Oblivion.

Eleventh: Lack of guilds: Morrowind had Imperial cult, Imperial legion, Morag Tong, East Empire Trading Company, Tribunal Temple, Thieves Guild, Mages Guild, Fighters Guild, House Redoran, House Telvanni, House Hlaalu, all of which had IN-DEPTH story lines with a myriad of quests for each. Oh, they also had REQUIREMENTS to advance in them. You had to meet certain skill levels and stat levels to further advance in the guilds you joined. Oblivion had Assassins, Thieves, Mages, Fighters, and a short minor Arena(which was fun, but could have been sooooooooo much better), with absolutely no requirements to advance beyond doing quest lines. I could have a purely built Warrior with not a single Thiefly or Magey quality be head of both. Which, of course, was also kind of annoying. At least Morrowinds guilds had certain quests that would all but cut-off access to joining certain other guilds(Mage and Telvanni don't go together, Fighter and Thieves didn't go together) unless you did some serious finagling.

Twelfth: Immortal NPCs = Total break of immersion. I don't care if I "break the thread of prophecy", if I want to kill someone because I don't like how they talk to me(again, this pretty much boils down to how you roleplay your character), then I should be able to kill them, not beat on them until they are knocked out, then a few seconds later they are back up again and perfectly civil with me!!!!!

Thirteenth: This was actually supposed to be in my original list, it was in my head when I started the post, but gone before I could type it: I'm not really the hero. I'm the sidekick. I hate being a side-kick. I'm nobodies side-kick. Martin couldn't have done jack-crap if it hadn't been for me, and what do I get? A crappy suit of armor that is not even as good of armor as I already posses by the time I'm done the main quest. Hated that ><

Fourteenth: Guards who ALWAYS know when I do something wrong, almost as if they are inside of my head and reading my mind. Makes it virtually impossible to play a true thief or assassin type character(with exceptions). If there are no guards around, and I decide to knife someone inside their house, the guards should NOT know that I just killed them unless I take forever doing it.

But how is it better? I own both and can't help but agree with the sentiment that Oblivion a simplified Morrowind. When you say "Better game anyway", what does that mean exactly? Why is it a better game anyway?