I have heard several times that having CHIM implies you don't need to use it because you know everything and so on, that you dont have the urge anymore to exert your power. but what about http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml?

I would take it with a grain of salt. That passage was MK's way of retconning the change in Cyrodiil's geography over the course of the ES games. Originally, Cyrodiil was supposed to be a jungle.

Someone who has realized CHIM, is above the gods and above the Mundus as far as I know; I don't think he would stay in mortal form like Tiber Septim. At the same time, I think it was MK who said CHIM is not the same as Nirvana. Others on the forum who are more knowledgeable than I can address this.

Apparently, you sit a few feet off the ground in a palace writing cryptic books to guide future heroes.

What would you do if you had more knowledge and power then anyone else?

really, i'm not sure why MK says Talos has CHIM. his ascension was more due to mantling or enantiomorph than cosmic realization.

Well, did he ever say it outright or was it only Many-Headed Talos? Aside from which it was a desperate attempt at a retcon that wasn't really all that needed (or effective, no offense intended). Giving Talos CHIM takes away from his mythic importance as a character, anyways, and I don't know who saw my Ben Franklin quote signature about characters vs. story ideas.

its also mentioned in the camoran texts. also, i'm going to have to disagree with godhood making someone less important. he was so awesome he became a god, he wasnt awesome because he was a god.

when you have CHIM you...

* ... float about or sit back, whatever fancies you, and flip through channels: on one, observe a mortal runs errands for Morgiah and Mannimarco. later, the aforementioned mortal accomplishes a rather inhuman feat: creating six realities. the other channel, a mage gone power hungry sits on the throne running the Empire down to chaos while the true king is trapped in another realm and a mortal is chosen to, again, accomplish the inhumane feat: kill the Empire's top mage and restore the true king to the throne.

* ... blend in with the walls(or whatever method you want to use to hide yourself) and sit in the jail cells waiting for the next prisoner to be released for X reason and be given X mission and then follow him or here around and laugh your 0 and 1 off watching the mortal struggle to steal the golden platter. later you watch as the said mortal ponders whether or not give the enchanted ring to an Elf. later you stand and again laugh your 0 and 1 off watching that same mortal trying to hit a darn Cliff Racer but swing after swing miss the blasted beast that's hovering three feet above the said mortal's head; at some point you get tired and [ .kill ] the Cliff Racer and the future Nerevarine continues the journey. later you look at the randomly but rather quickly changing weather in Mournhold and wonder: when will this mortal finally figure out the right lever positions? some time later you gaze at the mighty Karstaag Castle crumble and wonder: do i want to hit Rewind or seeing this happen 1000th time in a row is enough?

* ... sit on the river bank, turn on your X-Ray vision and see a group of assassins slay the Septim. then later you look at the prisoner now appointed hero struggling to fight his or her way to the top of the tower so to steal a magic stones and shut the Gate down. but because the mortal is too slow witted, you make the Daedric Siege Crawler brake down right before it makes it to the mortal realm. later you amuse yourself with the show: an insane(or partly insane still) mortal scout the realm for the pieces needed to remake Relmyna Verenim's unholy creation the said mortal destroyed earlier.

That's not what I meant, I meant that the way he became a god is very important in the Talos stories, so by giving him CHIM (especially before he became Emperor) that would be taken away.

And does camoran know half as much as he believes he knows?

Because the God of escape during Renewal and natural destruction decided to tell him the history of the world.

You go to Disney World!

Or more specifically, you walk to Disney World until it walks to you.



But, seriously, I like to think that CHIM's kind of like realizing you are part of the dream of a massive conciousness and instead of vanishing into nothingness at that fundamental realization (Since you do not "really" exist), come to the understanding that the entire universe, including yourself, is a mutable thing beyond the bounds of whatever it is to be "real", and thus gain the ability to alter it to your liking. I guess this is limited by the fact that there are a number of others (Daedra, Aedra, etc) that have a very similar perception of matters.

Essentially, a mortal's concept of their "reality" is only as "solid" as that mortal's senses and their beliefs make it to be.

I think whoever comes to that kind of realization has bigger fish to fry than any kind of concerns that we could understand, much less even comprehend, and that's why I can sort of understand why people find the whole Talos CHIM thing to be a bit silly.

I'd agree with most of that, but if I remember right the Daedra and the Aedra do not have CHIM and can't realize CHIM; only mortals can. The gods have limits on their future that mortals don't have. Hopefully someone can confirm this for me.

I didn't mean specifically that they had CHIM. They don't. What I intended to say is there are other powers (Both those I listed and many others) that exist beyond the mortal bounds of time and space that could potentially impede someone with CHIM from having more or less absolute dominion and control over every aspect of existance, if they so wanted. (Especially within their specific spheres)


If reality is a game, someone with CHIM has some intrinsic theoretical knowledge as to how the game is designed, and those like the Daedra are just really good players.

I do not think anyone with enough imagination to achieve CHIM would be at a loss for imagining a way to keep Daedria and Aedria from limiting his/her "powers".

Is there a list of all the known CHIM achievers out there?

I think i know what I would do when I had CHIM, but what I wanted to know was whether it's necessary to use your power to change the world, or that you don't use it because you realise it doesn't make sense. Or maybe you only use your power if you think it's amusing, or you are just sick of jungle. Talos apparently did the latter. But some people pointed that you don't feel the urge at all to change anything in the world, because the world is you. These things are a bit contradictional. So which one is right, or does that depend on the person who achieves CHIM?

Wh has Chim? Vehk did before his overdue death, and Shor does (not that it will help his soul, which is almost constantly in the dream-sleeve)

I'd guess that once you have CHIM, you have to make the effort to maintain it, else you could Zero-Sum.

I think it takes a while to Zero sum, considering that you can go get a scribe and give a fairly long monolouge. further, in parts of Vehk's talking in Obscure ttexts there are 'zero sum innteruptions' where vekh almost zerosums, but stabilizes.

CHIM isn't about being all powerful or all knowing. CHIM is being such that the rules no longer apply to you. Even Aedra and Daedra follow rules, even if they aren't the same rules as mortals; thus, Aedra and Daedra don't have CHIM.

Both Vehk and Talos existed in such a way that the rules no longer applied to them.

Besides for "From the Many-handed Talos," what says the Tiber had Ae Chim Ce Altadoon?

Shor didn't get CHIM, he failed, whether it was on purpose or not. I figure it was on purpose.

He saw the Tower and didn't zero-sum.

It seems that http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#4 agrees with you!

Damn you Kirkbride!!!

I messed up. I admit that.

Thanks magic monkey.