Another one of my main gripes is that the game doesn't feel like it is challenging you to survive. I mean, straight out of the Vault you can come out with 15 stimpacks and 120+ 10mm ammo. Really? That basically sets you up for a quite a while. I really want to play the originals right now because my friend told me that finding ammo was really hard. Fallout 3 should have been a challenge, yet Bethesda chose to avoid that so that people of a much younger age won't get frustrated with the game and hate it. IMO, Bethesda shouldn't care about the people who don't want a challenge, instead, they should make the game an actual RPG and an actual challenge.

Sorry for any of my idiocy.

FOFTW try in FO2 just starting out with a spear and not finding a small gun until the next town or two. Well if you could a pipe rifle with about 48 rounds as a "good small gun" the next town from the starting village. However you also had to cross into the wastes for a few days potencially getting out a encounter with gun toting baddies or a bunch of nasty beasties. Oh yeah and unlike in FO3 a level 1 character had like 20-30 some HP instead of the FO3 200+ HP.

Honestly, that sounds awesome, as in challenging awesome. That is what Fallout 3 should have had. But, like I said, Bethesda prefers to dumb down their games for a wider audience. I definitely want to get the originals now. The only thing is that I have never played a turn based game before, but that's something for a different topic.

While I do agree that Small Guns is mixing handguns, assault rifles, shotguns and the likes, at least in Fallout 1 + 2 weapon had stat requirements, which made the combat experience much different than Fallout 3.

If I play my medic character in Fallout 1 or 2 with the stats he has, he will indeed be restricted to handguns because he is not strong enough to fire a shotgun or a sniper rifle. Even with an handgun, he's far from being a killing machine, instead relying on his companions for combat situations.

While in Fallout 3, my medic can run in Power Armor and fire his Gauss Rifle without penalties even if he has 2 in Strength. Hell, he can even fire a missile launcher because there's a magical hand that helps him aim, giving him a bonus to all of his combat skills (A.K.A my FPS skills. )

This has to have been brought up before, but my "biggest" gripe would be the ruleset for Fallout 3. I don't think that they had to have kept everything exactly the same as it was in the older games (though, of course - if it isn't broke, why fix it?) But I don't think they really fully thought through all of the changes they made to the ruleset, and that it led to other underlying problems. Like the level cap problem (which wasn't a problem in the older games.) I don't mind that it's simpler, but I do think that the idea should have been to make a more "elegant" system, instead of just focusing on making it easier to understand.

As I said, if you wanted a direct copy of factions/weapons/etc., then yes, Fallout 3 is not even close to the original series.

But Enclave and Hunting rifle are very similar to their FO1/2 counterparts. Visually different, but the hunting rifle is still an almost broken mid-range firearm (one difference would be that FO3's rifle is bolt-action). The Enclave is not the same as before but that is explained with that the Enclave of Fallout 3 are the Navarro survivors who relocated to D.C., leaving Oil Rig's pre-war system behind and maintaining military-themed functions.


And for what I talk about where Fallout 3 resembles the originals, I focus on the canon and storyline and details. Gameplay is irrelevant, since it's not really relevenat when talking about what kind of a sequel Fallout 3 is as a Fallout game. They never said that the official gameplay of all Fallouts would be isometric 2D.


You complain about how bad sequel Fallout 3 is yet you say that Fallout 1 and 2 were not alike? Well, they aren't, that's true.

+1 to 97% if things said

I loath the fact that when I level up, the creatures in the wasteland level up as well. I want the feeling of FO2 where I know that there are areas where my level 3 Narg should not go and if he does he will be liquefied. Just like I know that at livel 40+ in FO2 I can go anywhere and destroy anything.

I like the fact that the game doesn't stop me from going anywhere on the world map, but the idea that the area CANT have enemies that you cant deal with is HORRIBLE.

that, in a game where there would only be a good 500 000 humans alive to day, survival is less then a priority. id love to see walking from megaton to minefield a serious statement of survival. also the area's too small, Id love it if there where flat, lifeless plains for miles of end, making traversing the ENTIRE wasteland the crazy dreams of a feral ghoul. I'm talking huge!!! almost limitless (I get that's almost impossible, but it would make SUCH a difference to the feel of the game) and, if you left your pip boy map, sure you could keep walking, but you'll probably get lost and die out there somwhere (man that would be awesome)

I'm a little divided on that. Sure certain areas should be hell for you to walk in at low level.
On the other hand, it is in principle more challenging that for a few levels these creatures move up a bit as well. The system just doesn't work that well in the game itself, which lies a lot with how easy combat is.

Enemies don't level in F3, there are sort of benchmark levels at which enemies are replaced with tougher versions or varieties. Like when you hit level 8 a super mutant spawn is replaced with a brute spawn, for example. The molerats and dogs you run into aren't any stronger at level 20 than they were at 1.

I said that the Enclave in FO2 & FO3 are not alike. (eh... and I said the same of the hunting rifles )

Don't be drawn by the lies! Fallout2 aint that hard.. I would like to direct your attention to this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAlgwr0Pg5M&feature=PlayList&p=18E3713E40EC6567&index=2 In less than 11 minutes he's basically set himself for the rest of the game (Atleast armour wise) Er on-topic.. my issue is with the removal of traits. Fallout:NV needs to bring traits back. Well it's video 3 of the let's play but whatever.. maybe less than 30mins or so..

I see. But, regardless, the reason they are not alike is that they were the remnants who were in Navarro and surroundings at the time Oil Rig blew up. Enclave's civilian wing blew up too, leaving only the military (or what's left of it) to survive. And led by a ZAX computer, it would be different from the "original" Enclave.

Different, yes, but at least it has been well explained why it is so.

No idiocy there at all. That is why we have Oblivion, so it would appeal to the younger gamer crowd who are not hardcoe RPG'ers. It's all about money, and you really can't blame them. The other alternative, is that they didn't make the game at all. Then we wouldn't be able to enjoy with what we have.

Put it this way, and I am just using this as an example, I have no idea what the real figures are. Bethesda is a company and just wants to make money, like most of us do. So why spend a million dollars into making a hard RPG that some of us want, and sell only 100 000 copies, where you can dumb it down, and sell 500,000 copies. If they don't dumb it down, Bethesda as a company might say don't bother with it, we will spend the million dollars on anthour project that might sell 200 000 copies, then we have no Fallout 3 at all.

So what do you want? Fallout 3 as is, or no Fallout 3 at all?

Yes there are so many Stim Packs. I swore I wouldn't use them all, but finding the game hard and needing them. I don't have so much caps either, so I guess I am not as efficient at playing the game as you guys, but you know what? Dont use them all. Dont grab all the caps, or stim packs? Or do what I do and store them at home and only carry as much as you would in real life. I did try that, but since I svck at the game, I carry them all because of the 0 wieght limit. Maybe there should be a weight to them then. But if you are on the PC then can't you mod weight to them then?

Onto the topic, I just find the wasteland too bland. I mean there is no diversity to it. At least in Morrowind you had grass lands, marshes, desert, wasteland and winter land. Fallout 3 has only the wasteland. I know you can get DLC, but if you don't get the DLC that is a moot point then isn't it? I would just wish there was some more varying terrian in F3. I know, nuclear wasteland and all that, but something so when I am all the way northwest and then go all the way southeast, there is something different in landscape.

Also, I HATE invisible walls. Either going to the edges of the main map and get the "you can't go no futher" message, or jumping on ruins in a building where you can't get into.

As I understood it Navarro was brand new, The Operator was very surprised that you were on the mainland at all (when he thought you were Enclave, then some joker), and claimed to have dispatched an assault team

With this in mind, I'd expect that the only remnants of the Enclave were a few squads out patroling the Navarro perimeter, and any survivors of the missing virtibird So maybe 35 Enclave troops? .

At most, I would only expect a couple remnant Enclave hunkered down in a half complete base somewhere, or a commandeered vault; With no ammo, and unmaintained gear ~and all of them 36 years older, and long since moved on from their stint with the Enclave. Maybe you'd find a Mark 2 in some storage locker in the bowels of the basemant... but like the Khans, they utterly were wiped out.

This "new Enclave" can't be assumed to have setup a modern functional manufacturing foundry for the creation of newly designed Power Armor ~and pay for it with bottle caps, now could they?

These New Enclave don't make sense in the context ~and even if they'd had five bases additional to Navarro, each with virtibirds and a semi-truck load full of power armor... it would have been the Mark 2's (or t51's).

My issue would be the sheer incompability of Fallout 3. It requires very spesific system to get it run propely even with patches, I still remember what it was like when Fallout 3 first came out, dear god it was horrible. Not only being annoyance, but crashes quite often breaks the immersion that would've been there like in days of Morrowind.

Not a complex result at all ... simple mathematics. Do the maths, move and/or shoot, win every time. That is not very exciting for those adept at it, satisfying yes, but a role-playing game is better off without it, it was ok for the days of slow graphics, and those into chess-board type games, but not for those wanting a more immersive RPG that has actual natural movement and interaction (glory be).

Maxing Specials too easy--hurts roleplaying.
Karma affects on game almost non existant.
Many major areas with no quests. Fort bannister, Lefant Plaza, etc...
No joining factions and faction specific quests like oblivion.
Power armor not very special.

That said, I love Fallout 3.

35? There is no way a military base (even if it was that small) would have only 35 or less people in there, considering that it has a functional helicopter field and scientific quarters. Fallout 2's engine just caused that they had to limit the number of occupants.
(And where does it say Navarro was destroyed along with Enclave's remaining leaders?)

Also, there must have been hundreds of soldiers patrolling the Wasteland, considering the huge amount of random encounters you get around Navarro. And since around 500 people is needed for a population to surive without inbreeding (if all families produce as much offspring as possible) the Enclave could easily have somehow established a considerable military force by 2277.

By the way, the power armor Enclave is using in East Coast is lighter, smaller and also lesser in quality. They also can't afford to maintain them (you never find their power armor in good condition), which gives the thing some sense. They also have to rely on mostly scavenged weaponry (Laser rifles, pistols) and lesser-in-quality plasma rifles which are based on pre-war prototypes.

For BoS or Shi and Vertibirds, Fallout 3 never says they didn't build them. In my opinion Lyons' gang didn't take Vertibirds with them since due to their short range they would run out of fuel before they got past Nevada. They could have left the Vertibirds for Lost Hills to use in their war against NCR. Actually, it wouldn't make sense if Lyons could have dragged a bunch of Vertibirds all across the continent. Enclave, on the other hand, had resources to build them and Raven Rock likely already had a supply of them (based on V-Bird hangars you see during your escape from there).

:lol: So I am enamored at the "amazing complexity" due to not being adept.
And yet your comments about slow graphics, and disdain for "chess-board type games" are equally telling. Immersion exists at many levels, and there is a reason why some can play chess all of their life and never tire of it.

The games you seem to prefer are the ones that are totally literal and direct ~feeding you every single detail like a flight simulator.
For me, the more abstract the game is [to a point], the more freedom I have to interpret the event presented. When I look at a game like say... Curse of the Azure Bonds, its sufficient that the wizard casts a spell, or the thief backstabs the paladin... When I look at Oblivion, I see in excessive detail, that the the highwayman swings his daedric warhammer at my PC the exact same way for the last five hits, and he gets stuck running in place against the boulder my PC is standing on for five minutes.... That is more what I'd consider an immersion breaker than a 16 color turn based combat RPG from 20 years ago. , I have no problem at all with it, because the AI need not be concerned with 6" curbs on the ground, and do conga lines around the edge of a cracked sidewalk marching some 90' out of it's way to return and claw my PC like the Deathclaws do in FO3.

I actually bought http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/ravenloft-stone-prophet AFTER Oblivion, having never heard of it before, and I like it better (that's just me, but hey...). I have no problems with good art, but never art for arts sake and forget the gameplay (I had my fill of that with http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/ring-ii-twilight-of-the-gods).

***Anytime someone mentions slow graphics as a hindrance, I am reminded of that guy Trixter's 8088 corruption demo, where he managed the following on a 1982 IMB PC (using a custom Codec, this video plays fullscreen with sound, in color ~using 4 color CGA card...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrwGxwLuo5I
:rofl: the video plays so fast that there's compression artifacts from Youtube's JPG trans-coding.

I never said "in there" I said a few squads patrolling the outlands near the base. Time in FO2's map was in hours & days. The base would have shifts.

As for inbreeding... weren't they especially sensitive about that? (I'd not be surprised if Enclave romance was purely invitro)

Aside from a small unfinished outpost under a petrol station, they seemingly had zero additional presence on the mainland except forays in with virtibirds and a few patrols on the ground. Enclave society if it existed was on the oil rig

The first armor is very cool, and the new armors and salvaged weapons are pretty good as well, but the Enclave itself is a recycled enemy. IMO there should have been only scattered remnants of that forgotten army ~scant few too.

This reminds me of the difference between our early "lizard brain" that is more instinctive and our later, evolved contemplative mind. It's possible to have "immersion" when either is active, so no one's right, but I agree with you and find my attention is more fully engaged when the latter is more fully involved. The early lollypop trees of 8 bit graphics could be as immersive as today's 3d. speedtree efforts not because they looked real but because my mind made them so.

I remember when Fallout 3 was released and people were talking about the loss of the text box. Someone from Bethesda, I think, mentioned that with their graphic abilities there was no need to write out that a bed looked as if it were teeming with life, that you wouldn't be laying there alone. They draw wonderfully detailed beds, it's true, but no representation can ever convey those words or that thought in the same way unless the player is as much a poet and writer as whoever came up with that description in the original. That's another thing we've lost, but the game certainly does have a lot of action to make up for it!

ETA: Typo

For inbreeding, yes they have sensitive about everything that may damage their genes. But I didn't say that inbreeding happened, only that it would NOT happen.

For recycling, I believe that Enclave, like Supermutants are a must for fallout games. BoS, if one, is an overused faction. I'd rather have had Fallout Tactics: NCR rather than the eternal BoS fan boy theme in all Fallouts.

Uber-pointless. Even into the hundreds? What the heck.

I mentioned it because they would not need 500 to reproduce.

I agree that the BOS is dreadfully overused, but they survived. Based purely on what I saw in FO2, it is plausible to me that the BOS could have a bunker, and still be around in FO3 (in some minor cameo), where as, the Enclave would seem not so plausible, except as 60 year old vets with what armors they had on their backs 30 years ago.

Fallout always has a Power Armor helmet on the box, so there is something to be said on that... but the Master's army was destroyed a century before, and Enclave was at least mostly destroyed about 35 years before. They have the same chance to rebuild as the Mutants right? But if the founding priciples include pure strain normal supremacy... and most were killed, where do their ranks come from? (when even the Vaults are contaminated) ~Why re-establish at all?

I won't say its not possible for them to rebuild; can't prove a negative, but will it always be "once more into the breach" with this series? Fallout 5: BOS alliance, and/or the Enclave reborn! Another romp through post apocalyptica, This time you're born a BOS initiate, and your Wasteland sweetheart is unknowingly an illegitimate test-tube daughter of a cybernetic half man, schizophrenic war hero/tactical defense AI ~ cryogenically frozen, and recently thawed out super soldier that wants to reunite and re-establish the great order of the Enclave using an army of FEV mutated clones of himself and purify the world for the 500,000 human embryos locked in the cryo-chambers where he was revived.. :fallout:

:facepalm:

Except that quite clearly they were a large pre-war organization that had a large influence before the war and certainly had the time and technology after it to expand. To think they laid all their eggs in that one basket, that no other facilities existed, seems a bit odd.
Besides the reason they are still going strong is supposed to be the fact that EDEN and some high up officers not killed with the oil rig, held the ideals high. As much as they might not like a computer president, his directives predate the war and exceed theirs.


I agree that re-using these factions is not that original. But in the context of the game their presence seems reasonable.
I certainly hope to so a new menace rise in the next game. Or perhaps just factions, who aren't necessarily 'THE BIG BAD', but are vying for control/order in their own way.