Exactly! I have no clue where people can type so many things ever the few dialog options we get! I would think most of the things are people just stretching one line from a NPC to around 7 pages of post are just head-cannon or they are really good at anolyzing a "Hello".

By the Nine, I was joking, learn how to take a joke over a fictional character.

I cannot agree. I think Ulfic and Tulluis are more vividly drawn than most of the characters in the other Elder Scrolls games. The fact that, nearly three years later, they are still generating heated debate suggests to me that Bethesda did a good job in making players connect to these characters, for or against.

People feel strongly about these characters, as we see here. I cannot recall similar debates being generated by characters in Oblivion. I'd say we'd have to go back to Morrowind and look at characters like Vivec and Dagoth Ur before we find characters who are vivid and meaningful enough to players to argue about.

All I did was show the point was wrong. Why should I take a point directed to me just because it was delivered in a joking manner?

You see me in a debate, and I'm currently in debate mode. So don't expect anything other than a debate response.

Good point.

But in any game put a "X person against Y person" and people will find a lot of things to debate, no matter if it's badly or well written they are.

I will admit, Vivec and Dagoth Ur have more "content" to them, and a lot of history to work with! They were both really interesting to talk and debate about due to how much things we had to work with about them.

It's pretty darn important, considering if he didn't deal with Elisif, she'd, gods forbid, act on her own. No one wants that...

And if the president didn't want to act as commander in chief as well as a politician, that doesn't mean it isn't a part of his job. And vice versa.

HE does not really do any governing. All I see of him is dealing with the Civil War as a general, not a political figure.

Dealing with Elisif and negotiating treaties IS governing. Even temporary ones. He's the voice of the Emperor in Skyrim.

Which is how it should be; he's a military man, not a diplomatic emissary. He is certainly not a mere figure-head though, a mock general. Of course Rikke is a skilled military strategist, she's a legate after all. But the general is a general for a reason. He is more qualified, on paper at least. When Rikke gains the experience needed, she will be promoted. That's the way the real military works, and it's no different in the TES universe. Of course that's completely theoretical though, and some (most) military personnel have achieved their high-ranking positions through nefarious means.

When does he talk to Elisif? All I know is that people say it, which does not make it true.

Too many people say he is a political figure. He does more military than governing. Governing is more than doing one thing here or talking to someone who is dealing with the average citizens.

Elisif herself suggests it in dialogue with her court.

There's also his diplomacy with the Thalmor and having to appease them. Political role.

I think for the party he is more forced to go. Elisif, we do not know what they really talk about. IT could be the war or something to do with defense from the rebels.

That my friend is exactly the point. Forced because appeasing the Thalmor is a part of his job. Doesn't sound military related to me specifically.

No one is saying Tullius isn't a military man. We're saying that this doesn't excuse him from his faults that are not related to the military specifically.

In fact, he's actually shown to be pretty good at handling relations with Elisif and the Thalmor, so it's not like we're saying he's god awful at it. The only reason all this was brought up was because I mentioned his ethnocentric comment. Which I agreed in the grand scheme of things didn't matter outside of personal opinion of Tullius, which is exactly what this thread is about.

If you don't care that he sees nords as a people to babysit, that's fine. But don't pretend like it wouldn't matter if that fact was well known.

"So Tullius, I was thinking about making a festival! Come help me pick the decorations!"

*Tullius screams internally*

And I have been saying all this time, that I think he is a military man, with nothing to do with how I think of him as a governor (which I think he is not), because I have never seen him do anything that relates to governing (the same thing that the Jarls do).

Which means nothing to my opinion, which had nothing to do with political as I have never seen him do anything related to the governor part of "military governor."

I'm only going to say this one more time. He is indeed a governor as well as a military figure.

If what you want to say is you don't care that he sees nords as barbarians, which could affect his relations with them, especially if found out, then that's fine. Perfectly fine. I think it is something to consider, considering someone that thinks that way isn't likely the best person to put in charge of a war where part of your job requires gaining Nords to your side. All he'd be able to say to them is it's their duty to serve the Empire, and he can't speak to them on a level they can relate to.

You say it doesn't matter because he doesn't speak to them, but the fact that he doesn't, whether by choice or by limitations IS a flaw against his capacity as a leader, since his side is almost faceless, whereas Ulfric is well known and charismatic. That's an advantage Ulfric has over Tullius.

You cannot pretend it's not a point against him by ignoring that PR is a part of his job. Not doing your job doesn't mean you're not bad at it.

Babysitting Elisif, a Jarl, is exactly that. As is his treaty negotiations.

And Again, my opinion had nothing to do with him as a governor. You kept arguing over it when I never spoke of my opinion in that way.

Because your opinion wasn't that you don't care that tullius had a negative. Your opinion was that there was no negative at all, because he wasn't a governor, and that part is what I'm debating against. That is what is false.

There's a difference in saying I don't care about a flaw, and denying a flaw.

This here is your original response I responded to. He indeed does, because part of his job is getting recruits to join their side. A part of his job he ignores and solely leaves to others. Whether its because he's a military guy who isn't good at that aspect, or whether it's because he isn't good at it due to his ethnocentrism, either way, he's neglecting it, something very important, whereas Ulfric addresses this directly, and has the advantage in recruiting because of it.

Not my original response. you made it that way because you simply chose it that way. The post I quoted is my original response. You might want to read the entire first page.

I have quite a bit of respect for Tullius. He already won the war in my eyes, and he has actual character growth as you go down the Imperial quest-line. I find it funny that Stormcloaks give him a hard time about not caring about Nord culture when Ulfric, Galmar, and most oher on the SC side likewise care nothing for Imperials or the way they do things. Hell even Nords on the Empire side don't care much for actual Imperial culture.

It's the original response I responded to, which I said in my edit just above, dude. I read the entire first page, and you can't negate the post I quoted because of your first response. It's irrelevant because I never quoted it.

But it is relevant because it is my opinion, which is the topic of the thread, and had nothing to do with subsequent posts. My opinion of the guy stands, that Tulius is a military man.