Whats up with redguards? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:51 pm

Imperials literally did not exist until Talos' apotheosis.

Rather, not until the TSA: Redgaurd. Anything else is just confuses things.

The amalgam comes from http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/frontier_conquest.shtml and is implied by the Nedic Tribes in the Song of Pelinal.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:57 pm

For instance, women in Hammerfell have rights, they can fight and hold positions of authority.

I could make the same point about the Nords.

But anyways, Bretons and Nords are Christians, by Durza's thinking. Given that Tamriel's inspiration is not limited by time period, that could mean anything from Armenian Orthodox Christian to Coptic to catholic to Mormon. The real world is more complicated and it's just another case where the comparison is simplified and useless.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:33 pm

But anyways, Bretons and Nords are Christians, by Durza's thinking. Given that Tamriel's inspiration is not limited by time period, that could mean anything from Armenian Orthodox Christian to Coptic to catholic to Mormon. The real world is more complicated and it's just another case where the comparison is simplified and useless.

Agreed. Though the writers might have taken some aspects of certain real world cultures and religions and adapted them to TES Lore (for example, the Nerevarine Prophecies bear some similarities to certain Jewish beliefs, most notably that of a long-awaited Messiah), that does not mean that TES lore is a direct copy of real world cultures and religions. Trying to make it out that way is, as paw-prints-in-the-mud put it, useless.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:20 am

If it's of any interest, I recall that MK made a retrospective post about his experiences writing Redguard and mentioned that he wanted to write a race of black imperialists, as that's something that's never actually happened in world history, both as a sort of weird commentary on the potential for other types of "black" cultures and for [censored] and giggles. I don't have it on me, but it did mention that he passed the idea by the Redguard voice actor in the series. Someone less lazy could probably dig it up in the TIL archives or something.

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:15 am

As some people know I'm not really a fan of the United Colors of Beneton approach to Tamrielicreation, which smacks of white guilt and offensery rather than some holistic form of beautiful inclusion. Thus, it's my fault that the Asian anologues got eaten. Oops. Looks like others are bringing 'em back, though. But I promise my choice had nothing to do with Yellow Peril, it had to do with co-opting "coolness of color" without thinking about it intelligently and compassionately.

(Hunkers down for the flame.)

That said, when I started writing Redguard I really thought about how unique the black people of Tamriel were: they came in and kicked ass and slaughtered the indigenes while doing so. They invaded. It was the first time I had encountered the idea of "black imperialism"...and it struck me big time, as something 1) new, 2) potentially dangerous if taken as commentary, and 3) potentially rad if taken as commentary.

Who knows. AVault did say it had a story worthy of being on stage, and Michael Mack (Cyrus) once thanked me for giving him words that "Black folks don't get to say" (referring to Cyrus' speech and the reversal of Son to the Father)... which broke my heart and made me puff my chest all at the same time.

There it is. The anolysts out there should notice the bit that says "without thinking intelligently and compassionately." In looking to create a race that acted different from real life history, MK apparently wasn't acquainted with the largely black Berber invaders of Spain and France, creators of the (sort of) Empire known as Al-Andalus. So when you dive deep into the details of history and culture, you've already left the actual origin of the subject far behind. MK wasn't working from reality so much as general, personal, images and altogether less-concrete ideas. If you go much farther beyond 'Nords are like Vikings,' you're basically making stuff up.

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:18 am

It's these brief, poignant glimpses of culture and illumination of my mental blockages that, after several years, I keep coming back here.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:07 pm

Gameplay-wise: Redguards have slightly better fighting skills than Imperials, who have supplementary diplomacy skills.

Lore-wise: They're from another continent, therefore they look way different than the other human races.

The name comes from the Yokudan word "Ra'gada" which means warroir wave, referring to the exodus to Tamriel. The name has nothing to do with their skin colour, although to my mind they're certainly leaning over to the redder end of the spectrum.

Their skin varies from game-to-game. In Arena, they were very, very dark skinned. Nowadays, they are much redder.

The Imperials have a Roman gloss, but they live in the Amazon (in the real Cyrodiil, of course), build Aztec megastructures, and have a metaphysical system that resembles monastic gnosticism. Kinda.

:rofl:

There it is. The anolysts out there should notice the bit that says "without thinking intelligently and compassionately." In looking to create a race that acted different from real life history, MK apparently wasn't acquainted with the largely black Berber invaders of Spain and France, creators of the (sort of) Empire known as Al-Andalus. So when you dive deep into the details of history and culture, you've already left the actual origin of the subject far behind. MK wasn't working from reality so much as general, personal, images and altogether less-concrete ideas. If you go much farther beyond 'Nords are like Vikings,' you're basically making stuff up.

*gasp*

Are you saying that MK doesn't know everything?!!?! That's heresy around these parts, boi!

I'm still waiting for Bethesda to say that the Redguards now wear Echo instead of armor, and solve their disputes through rapping. Pankrotosword? Massive Rap Battle between the Ra'Gada and the Left-Handed elves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwP8yZdyUg

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:21 pm

Are you saying that MK doesn't know everything?!!?! That's heresy around these parts, boi!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwP8yZdyUg

I don't really trust MK on some things either.

And apparently, Traveler's Checks aren't gangster. My life is ruined.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:19 pm

the Left-Handed elves.

The who now? :confused:

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:39 am

They inhabited Yokuda and were defeated by the ancestors of the Redguards, like the Falmer were exterminated by the Nordic invaders.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:40 pm

They inhabited Yokuda and were defeated by the ancestors of the Redguards, like the Falmer were exterminated by the Nordic invaders.

Ah. Any reason they are called "Left-handed"?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:21 pm

we dont really know anything about them except their name. the left hand is traditionally a symbol of power and dominance in lore, and i guess it could also be interpreted as "different" or even evil (based more on rl mythos).

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:21 pm

we dont really know anything about them except their name. the left hand is traditionally a symbol of power and dominance in lore, and i guess it could also be interpreted as "different" or even evil (based more on rl mythos).

It is? Now that is interesting! Could you point me to places that have this sort of symbolism? Or just mention the key events, I can search on TIL.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:58 am

Off the top of my hand, Pelinal's left hand.

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:31 am

Perhaps this has some significance?

'For I have crushed a world with my left hand,' he will say, 'but in my right hand is how it could have won against me. Love is under my will only.'

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:00 pm

Pelinal, Vivec in the Sermons (the quote Lost posted plus another one), and Alessia is said to hold the dragonfires in hers. oh, and Cyrus in the Sword Meeting.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:41 am

I'm a lazy bastard. What was significant about Cyrus' left hand?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:36 pm

Why do people keep saying 'no offence'? There's no redguards on the forums.

Must... resist making... that a... sigline... GAH!

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:41 pm

we dont really know anything about them except their name. the left hand is traditionally a symbol of power and dominance in lore, and i guess it could also be interpreted as "different" or even evil (based more on rl mythos).

Or underhanded and sneaky for another RL appellation. I can't remember where, but I got the distinct impression that since we get the name from the Redguards, it's a (vulgar) nickname they used to describe them, much like snowman is to Nords. It might've been an offhand comment by MK.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:17 pm

I'm a lazy bastard. What was significant about Cyrus' left hand?

he learned to fight with it from a memory stone, making him more uber than before.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:01 pm

i guess it could also be interpreted as "different" or even evil (based more on rl mythos).

Opposite the right, another example of the omnipresent, dichotomy theme...

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:13 am

Ah. Any reason they are called "Left-handed"?

I was so hoping that MK would write something about that.

Now I have to make do with my un-orginal imagination.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:10 pm

It likely means of the other or Padomayic. Notice also how the Yoku have a rather Anu aligned pantheon and view of creation.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:33 pm

I always saw them as black imperials honestly. No offence to any one.

Noob.

Anyone who was introduced to The Elder Scrolls before Morrowind would have seen Imperials and called them "white Redguards". :rofl:

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:39 pm

Moderator: Quoted post deleted.
...what? Next, are you going to say that khajiit and argonians were added to make the furries happy, and orcs were put in because too many green people complained? Redguards have been in TES since the beginning, and they've always been complete bad asses