I can agree with you there. There should be CERTAIN exceptions to the rule. I am now leaning towards Autumn's opinion where the Enclave should rebuild with EVERYBODY. I still don't know.

Yeah, I see your point that EVERYBODY has been affected, but if my country tells me to kill mutants, that is what I will do. I will only change my orders untill I get full confirmation.

agreed slavery is a terrorist act and will be punished severely

:) Now folks, THIS is why you must support the Enclave. We will FREE all the slaves!

not for the slaves they are just as bad as their captors but for the act of taking slaves it is anti american and we need to uphold the moral fabric of our great wasteland nation in these uncertain times

What do they teach people in Enclave schools? Absolutely sod all? The US invaded China to take some pressure off of Anchorage, but establishing a foothold and actually winning an offensive war in China are hugely different things. China is a massively large country, the logistics involved in fighting a war that far away is crazy complex (particularly with the fuel shortage experienced at the time), and China wouldn't have had to launch nukes at the US mainland to wipe out the invasion force. All they'd have had to do was to drop tactical nukes on the invaders. I'm sure they could've managed as much. Conversely, the US was in a situation where it would now be fighting the entire Chinese military might in China. If the US couldn't easily take back Anchorage, there's no way an invasion of China would work out and so the US would've had every reason to go full scale nuclear. Or retreat from China, but we all know how bad that would look.

As for the idea that humans with radiation damage are only animals, it merely confirms that Enclavers have lost the human trait of empathy and collectively need to be put down for the good of everybody. The same emotional state as super mutants (perverted enjoyment of violence, no conscience, no empathy, cares only to kill everything that is not "themselves") but unfortunately far more capable of achieving their goals.

And concerning whether radiation-caused mutation is natural, it really is widely known that there was a base level of radiation even before the war. It wasn't believed to be harmful at the time but then mutations weren't considered abomination either.

Speaking of abominations vs humans, I'd really like for you to find any point in the constitution where it even remotely suggests that humans with radiation damage aren't actually humans. They still belong to the species of homo sapiens and so they have human rights. It takes a seriously revisionist kind of thinking to try and deny that point. Well, a revisionist or just a brainwashed Enclaver.


He's probably spent time in the wasteland. That makes him a mutant by Enclave standards. How would him supporting the Enclave achieve anything other than the Enclave shooting him in the face? Or is that your idea of getting "all your rights back"? Would make sense, truth be told. You're a racist bastard who thinks "mutants" only have the right to be dead regardless of self-awareness or intelligence (by and large similar to Romulan thinking, isn't it?), so it stands to reason that you'd actually be arrogant enough to think that all "mutants" should want to die, regardless of how silly such a notion is.


The Nuremberg trials blow your excuse out of the water. You've been ordered to consider all radiation-damaged citizens as "mutants beyond rescue" and thus vermin to be executed. There's no way in hell you can even begin to think that to be a legal order. Well, unless you're murderous scum that is going to run head first into a .308 bullet in the near future. Literally so, in fact.


You think we can ALL agree that being exterminated is better than being enslaved? As far as I'm concerned, the Enclave are no different than the slavers. Only difference is that the slavers are immensely dumber and easier to overthrow, particularly since they'd actually allow me to live long enough to do so rather than kill me on sight the moment I'm unable to fight back.


Only humans can be slaves. The people enslaved by the Slavers are radiation-damaged and thus animals as far as the Enclave is concerned, which means the only freedom they'll get from the Enclave is that of a plasma bolt to the face.


Slavery is "un-American" but large scale extermination of what even by Enclave standards must be categorized as intelligent, self-aware, peaceful, and defenseless humanoids is not? That's one funny code of ethics if I ever saw one. Did Eden help you figuring that one out? Because I'm fairly certain that McAfee never existed in the Fallout universe and so there's a rather fair chance that Eden doesn't have an up-to-date antivirus, and as anyone knows, never trust a oddly behaving computer without an updated antivirus application.

The earliest reference I can find to that attitude comes from dike Richardson's administration. Though I've yet to get access to an Enclave database that isn't slag and rubble, so it may be much older. Regardless of its source, it is a violation of the UCMJ, the War Crimes Act, and the Enclave's attempt to change the meaning of the Constitution and seize power without the consent of the people is tantamount to, if not full-on treason. Which, by the way, is likely the reason Eden started those broadcasts. Some part of him doesn't want to be guilty of treason, so the propaganda broadcasts attempt to deceive the people into letting the Enclave murder them all.

And lets not forget their habit of turning Deathclaws loose on people. Or testing FEV on prisoners...repeatedly. That definitely falls under 'cruel and unusual punishment'.

Even if I was the poorest slaver, i'd still be richer than anyone in the enclave or brotherhood :gun:
Its all about the caps for me, besides, I figure im simply "liberating" people from there normal lifes into one with a steady job and free food :chaos:

Alright, alright. Everyone gets it now: The Enclave hates the Brotherhood, the Brotherhood hates the Enclave. We all have our own views and we'll continue to kill each other about it. So what? Let the baby have its bottle. If the Enclave wants to get rid of hostile mutants and help Wastelanders, so be it. If the Brotherhood wants to scraqe up a few tin cans and a washing machine, so be it. Let's all be happy, now.

I agree with a lot of people. Being a slave is a lot better then being a victim of genocide. :thumbsup:

This

I, on the other hand, firmly believe in standing my ground to my final breath. Part of that is protecting myself and others from having the most precious of all gifts taken away...self-determination. Life without Liberty is just a coward's death.

I think the point is that if you're exterminated outright then you can't have another go at liberating yourself tomorrow. If you're merely enslaved then you're not dead and where there's life, there's hope.


Sounds like good times to me. *loads sniper rifle*


I don't mean to be an ass, but it would be really nice if you Enclavers could get your terminology straightened out a bit. Slasher and Alex have previously made a big point out of how any human with any sort of "unnatural" mutation is in fact a mutant and thus merely an animal with no human rights. It therefore becomes... confusing, to say the least, when you're suggesting that the Enclave will help Wastelanders by killing hostile mutants. If that was all the Enclave did then I'd have little problem with them.


Nah, it's the Outcasts who are scaping up tin cans and old fridges and whatnot. Well, them and the BoS Main Division. BoS East Division are more concerned with slaughtering super mutes and pretending to be badass. And not even say "thank you" when you help them out after they walk head first into a pack of solidly armed greenskins.


I'd love to comply, but I've got this nagging feeling that me being happy means you and your fellow Enclavers being fairly unhappy.

No, no, you don't understand. You're thinking of the EDEN Enclave followers. The Enclave that follows AUTUMN is the more sane and reasonable bunch.

I will now follow you sir.

God Bless Autumn

I like how you said "more sane" rather than just "sane". Shows that you're not completely unaware that Autumn is overly fanatic about reaching his goals. He's still in blatant violation of the values the US used to stand for, but I will give you that he's somewhat less of a genocidal maniac than Eden. Oh and did I mention that he's still a murderous bastard who has no qualms killing people that aren't willing to bend over for him? The man is essentially a psychopath with absolutely no conscience, merely a desired goal that he's going to achieve no matter what he has to do. While Eden is largely Asurean (aka human-form replicators from Star Gate Atlantis), Autumn is more like the Borg.

"We are the Enclave. You will become a citizen of the reborn USA. We will add your physical and mental resources to our war machine. Resistance is futile."

Tell me, when was the last time Autumn moved his fat ass out and tried to actually help the Wastelanders? That's right, he's NEVER EVER done so. Instead, he's planning to let Wastelander eggheads fix the pollution, kill the eggheads, and then take credit for their work. He's trying to use Wastelander skill to convince the Wastelanders that they're lost without the Enclave. What kind of leadership is that? What kind of leader is that? What is he going to do when he's killed all the eggheads out there and there's nobody left for him to steal brilliant work from?

You flippin commie!

Autumn wanted to use the purifier to UNITE the wastes, ghouls, humans, and others. The wastelanders ARE LOST WITHOUT the Enclave, as shown by the slavers and raiders. IF ANYOBDY has the moral value of an American, it is Autumn!!

The Wasteland must and will be united under one flag, Until then, the world is lost and will continue to be bad. As I said before.. listen commie..... Autumn wants to UNITE.. say it with me U..N...I.....T...E. He wants to unite the wastes using the water, to give freedom to all. God Bless him!

GOD BLESS THE ENCLAVE... GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Autumn wants the government to seize the materials of a private citizen and then distribute them to others under the government's banner? No, sorry, Alex. Autumn is the Communist. Soviet Communist at that! So lap up that propaganda, Comrade, you've been duped.

Autumn is so full of crap and so are you. Autumn isn't uniting anything by KILLING the people who clean up the very pollution HIS organization created and then trying to take credit for what is 100% Wastelander work. His idea of "uniting" America is to shoot anyone who resists and pull off some charade about helping those who join. At the end of the day, he has done NOTHING to help Wastelanders and he never will, because fundamentally he doesn't give a [censored] about them. He cares for one thing and one thing only, the Empire of Autumn.

You say the Wastelanders are lost without the Enclave? The Wastelanders managed to finish Project Purity and last I checked, the Raiders and the Slavers aren't remotely in control of the Wasteland. They control small pockets but the various settlements manage to get by regardless. With Project Purity up and running, that's one massive obstacle entirely out of the way. No more massive radiation sickness from tainted water. No more massively radiated crops from watering them with tainted water. No, the Wastelanders are just fine without the Enclave. They're free Americans in every meaning of the word. With that obstacle taken care of, the eggheads that still live can focus on getting rid of FEV, another Enclave invention that is causing havok in the Wasteland. Another Enclave action that Autumn isn't taking responsibility for.

The Wastelanders are lost without the Enclave? Heh, more like the Wastelanders are lost because of the Enclave. Without you tyrannical buggers to constantly [censored] things up for the entirety of humanity, there's a very good chance the world might begin to recover and return to some form of civilization.

As for American values, would you be so kind as to describe the American values that Autumn has demonstrated? The whole "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" thing doesn't seem to be what he's about. By the way, it's kind of funny you keep calling me a commie. If anything, I'm essentially arguing for borderline anarcho-capitalism for the time being, a system which is literally the polar opposite of communism. You, on the other hand, are arguing for a big, all-powerful state with the mandate to kill, torture, steal, and imprison anyone it desires at any time with no due process. Sounds like the Soviet Union to me. Between the two of us, you're probably more of a commie than I am.

At the end of the day, you and Autumn and all the other Enclavers are traitors to the memory of America and the ideals it stood for. You die in dishonor. A hundred years from now, people will mention the Enclave only when they need to reference complete ineptitude or draconian totalitarianism. A hundred years from now, people will let their dogs crap your graves.

:-)

I wonder how Autumn would look in boxer shorts? :unsure2:

Like a Swiss cheese wearing a pair of boxers, if I've got anything to say about it.
:gun:

No no no, Autumn is different than Eden, he is much more American.

And for your info, I HATE big goverment, I hate GOVERMENT control, I am MUCH more moderate than you though I HATE communism, and I hated the SOVIET UNION. I love the Enclave because THEY ARE AMERICA. I do not neccesarily support all their ideas. I rally around Autumn because he is MUCH more moderate than Eden.

Autumn, if you listened carefully, did not like Eden's plan. He wanted to use the water to unite the wastes under the Enclave, not kill them all. The Enclave are doing EVERYTHING they can to make America, America again. I am sure if you were a wastelander, YOU would want America again. Once the Enclave takes over America again, things WILL return to normal. THey belive in the TRUE pre-war America, which is what I want.

I am sorry for calling you a commie, forgive me. In real life, I am MUCH more moderate and would probably hate the Enclave. You see, I treat Fallout as if I was in that world, and since I LOVE America, I would naturally support AMERICA!

God Bless the Enclave, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Okay, first off...

I want to be able to know who is with the Eden Enclave, and who is with the Autumn Enclave, because right now, you all still read "Enclave" to me. There should be some designation on who's who, not just PROUD SUPPORTER OF THE ENCLAVE! I also want to know Autumns Plans, his platform, before I go on supporting him. I want his take on this, and I want some proof that he will follow through. I don't pledge my allegiance to every guy carrying a laser rifle without seeing some results first. If I can get some proof, and some explanation, then maybe I might support you. I have not seen any Enclave threads on the forum fully explaining anything, in fact, the last time I saw an Enclave Soldier, he was trying to put a plasma bolt in between my eyeballs.

You hypocritic oh-so-patriotic Enclave-apologists should do something about all the barrels filled with radioactive waste that your predecessors left before they fled to their cave in Tora Bora Raven Rock.
Why so eager when it comes to 'human purity' when the whole country is drowned in pollution?

A few things, Alex.
1: I'm RP'ing rather dramatically in this topic. As I said a fair few posts ago, I'm one angry vault dweller. Combine the role with me role playing and my language will get... strong, at times. I say this to ensure that you (and everybody else) realise that I'm just "acting" and aren't actually taking offense from anything, nor should anyone take offense from what I'm saying. I imagine that if an Enclaver and a semi-anarchistic and rather independent Wastelander were to sit and have a chat over a few beers, the language would indeed be rather colorful. There'd probably be a few fistfights over the span of the night, just to blow off some steam. I'm simply trying to RP that sort of attitute. :laugh:

2: In real life, I'm essentially a social-liberal. Moderate government with moderate responsibilities and of course moderate taxation. One of those bleeding heart liberal types, if you will, who don't feel comfortable watching people lose their homes over unemployment or disease. I'm still very far from being a socialist, however. Socialists believe in collectivism and equality and I sure as heck don't. I believe in everybody making what they can from their life. I just believe the government has to step in and take responsibility in a few areas.

It works out for the best because we're at a stage in development where people starving to death really should be unacceptable and where the government leaders aren't all that potent. There are fairly significant limitations on what they can do, but this is one place where the Fallout universe differs tremendously from reality. The Enclave has no such limitations. Consequently, I'd rather see no government than a government without limitations because the former might actually work somewhat whereas the latter has a long history of never working out.

Fallout-wise, what I see in time is a loose confederacy between major settlements. Nothing restrictive at all. Mostly just a discussion forum where ideas can be brought up. At this time, I'm fully convinced that the Wastelanders just aren't ready for anything above and beyond that, nor is it actually worth the investment in red tape to try to create any government with more power.

3: I'm not American so obviously "but it's America, AMERICA!!!" isn't quite as convincing to me, as it might be to Americans. Obviously, for the purposes of this RP, I'm pretending to be American since that's where FO takes place, but even then I find it hard to be an American nationalist or even a hardcoe patriot. Thinking that your country (or for that matter its leadership) can do no wrong is not something we consider a virtue where I'm from.

Now, regarding your comments.


America is not a single organization. America is a nation of free people. The people define the country, not the other way around. America was meant to be a non-oppressive democracy. Can you really see the Enclave being the same thing? The states joined the Union voluntarily after the war of independence. Exactly zero states were forced into it. How does that match up with Autumn's methods?


My point exactly. There's all this clean water which can help the Wastelanders immensely and Autumn is going to try and take patent on it and kill anyone who'd have it distributed for free. Instead of actually doing something helpful, like slaughering the Slavers or the Raiders or getting rid of FEV or cleaning up all that damn pollution, Autumn is going to take over something that was already done BT THE WASTELANDERS THEMSELVES and use it as a bargaining chip. How is that noble in any meaning of the word?


I'm afraid I disagree. The Enclave doesn't fundamentally believe in the same values as pre-war America. Well, maybe the pre-war America immediately prior to the war (the America that fiddled around with testing FEV on humans and went to war instead of investing in alternate energy), but then that's hardly something to be proud of. America is what it is, not because of the name, but because of the ideals it strives to live up to. Take away those ideals and America isn't a damn bit better than any other country on Earth and there's exactly zero reasons to strive to rebuild it. Part of those values is that nobody are forced to join America.

Autumn confiscating private "non-American" property and then trying to use that technology to pressure outsiders into joining his kingdom? That is NOT American. I don't care what his exact motives are, but that is not American. I could understand it somewhat if he needed the tech to help people in the Enclave, but killing the people who built the Purifier just so he can use it for political purposes speaks volumes of the man he is. If I was a wastelander, I most certainly wouldn't want to be commanded by such a man. He has no integrity, no honor. He has no moral qualms leaving his men behind, sacrificing them, killing civilians. What kind of a man would I be if I followed a leader displaying those qualities? For all of his posturing talk about restoring America, Autumn is displaying none of the virtues of true Americans.

A true American would unite the Wasteland through free choice. He would never kill his fellow Americans solely because they don't want to unite under his personal leadership. Autumn, on the other hand, is using force of arms and the threat of death, and before you bring up how he'd use the Purifier peacefully, please do remember how he decided to get control over it. That's hardly the American way, is it? And if it is, do we really want to recreate that America?

I understand your point.

But.. the land is not America right now.. it is the.. wasteland. Right now, the Enclave is America. They have virtue, they want to bring the country back, under HUMAN control. Maybe, if they follow Autumn, they will include everybody, we will have to wait and see.

But, please don't lecture me. I have read the constitution more times than I can't remember. (Reference to Herbert Daring Dashwood). I know what America is and about.

And yes, I do want America back.