To whoever may come upon this letter and find it of interest,

The Sharmat's Dream, The Minds of Gods

There is no voyager so well-traveled as the traveler in the land of dreams...
I am the lord of limitless space, and the master of place and time.
Through the doors of sleep, the universe lies waiting for me.
--Arkved's Notes
---------------------------------------------

During the course of writing a short pamphlet describing the nature of the nomadic Ashlanders of Vvardenfell I was privy to various small bits of information which at the time I found inconsequential but which later spawned my ponderings which grew into this text. Since that is where I began my thoughts, it is also where I shall begin this text.

The original question was posed by the Ashlander Hassour Zainsubani who had given up the nomadic lifestyle to live in Ald’ruhn, and he spoke momentarily concerning the threat of Dagoth Ur:
“Dagoth Ur is dead. I hope we will no longer be troubled by his dreams. But I wonder, too, what the ghost of a god would be. And can a dead god dream?”
I didn’t give much thought to the statement at the time, however once I had become friends with the Urshilaku the words of their wise woman, Nibani Maesa, would trigger the old question again:
“Dagoth Ur is dead. I would like to rejoice. But I feel uneasy. I cannot forget that Lord Nerevar once thought Dagoth Ur dead, long, long ago. He was mistaken.”
When I inquired into his death during the Battle of Red Mountain she said the words that would haunt my thoughts from then on & if you had asked her before Ur's destruction concerning him she would have said: “Dagoth Ur himself is mad. He is dead, but he dreams he lives.” So there it began. Naturally when I returned from the nomads I felt a strong desire to look deeper into the matter. I found various older texts which I had around from when I wrote concerning the Dwemer and in these texts I looked deeper into the circumstances concerning Dagoth Ur’s first death to see what I could find; various sources came in handy and I note them here:
“Then Dagoth fought with Nerevar and the counselors, and was mortally wounded and driven off… But Dagoth had not died… His experiments with Kagrenac's Tools had joined him to the heart's divine nature in some way, so that he learned to draw power directly from the heart.”—Kagrenac’s Tools
“Dagoth Ur was left to guard the tools while Nerevar came to consult with us, his advisors. In Nerevar's absence, Dagoth Ur experimented with the tools upon the heart, and was corrupted… we drove him away.
Dagoth Ur had survived our attacks, and without the tools, in a manner not well understood, Dagoth Ur also managed to establish a connection with the Heart and to transform himself into an immortal being.”—Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur
So, according to both the hand of Vivec and the Dissident Priests, Dagoth Ur had not died at Red Mountain – rather, he had experimented with the tools enough to learn the ways of the Heart and after having been driven away and mortally wounded, he (following an unknown amount of time) “managed to establish a connection with the Heart” without the tools and in a way that Vivec does not understand. And what is the state of one who is on the verge of death becoming immortal? Another text explained Dagoth Ur’s actions after the Battle of Red Mountain and so I note it:
“before 2E 882: Dagoth Ur and his kin lie dreaming beneath the sills of Red Mountain.
2E 882: Dagoth Ur and his ash vampires awake refreshed and emerge from lower Red Mountain into the Heart Chamber. Dagoth Ur ritually binds himself and his brethren as heartwights in a ritual of his own devising.”—Dagoth Ur’s Plans
Dagoth Ur had “lie dreaming” after the battle, but what does that mean, and had he ‘while dreaming’ already acquired his power (since the previous texts didn’t say how long it took for Dagoth Ur to connect himself after being driven away). As it seemed to me, first Dagoth Ur experimented slightly, then was run off but did not actually die at Red Mountain. At this point he a)is either sustained by this experimenting or other means in a dreaming state for the next two and half thousand years or so, b)or goes straight back and transforms him and his fellows into immortals without the tools after the Tribunal left and then entered into his dreaming state, the information is sketchy at best. I believe that it was the former, but I also believe he did in fact die, and I shall tell you why.

First, there were the words of the Ashlander Wise Woman Nibani Maesa, who had said that Dagoth Ur had been killed at Red Mountain, but it went deeper than that. I was able to acquire the very words of Vivec which had been penned, and I note them here:
“[Being a god] is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time…
It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again... That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once.
In his sustained shadow immortality… [Dagoth Ur] is a mad god. He was a god, and now he is dead.—Vivec
And it is in this bit of dialogue that the words of the god coincided with those of the Wise Woman. “Lord Nerevar once thought Dagoth Ur dead” and “Dagoth Ur and his kin lie dreaming… Dagoth Ur and his ash vampires awake.” Vivec likened his own death to sleep, and until 2E 882 Dagoth Ur had been beneath Red Mountain 'sleeping'/'dreaming'. So if death is the sleep of an immortal, what happens when they dream? Here the old words of the Wise Woman hit me harder than the ground after falling from atop a Silt Strider, “Dagoth Ur himself… is dead, but he dreams he lives.”

But how was this possible, and what were its implications? I looked deeper in the subject of dreaming to try and find my answer. One of the sources I'd came across concerning Ur was quite helpful:
“Dagoth Ur: "Sharmat. Dream-sleeved inversion, where the Biters live, he brought them here, pawn of the Aggregate."--Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree
Here was a great clue in my search, “dream-sleeved inversion”, but what did this mean. Inversion I already knew, to reverse the position, order, or condition of something; but what of the dream-sleeve, and what did it mean to be “dream-sleeved”. By asking around I learned that “the dreamsleeve is a conduit for sending special transmissions… only to reach it one must have at least part of their brain constantly meditating, because one aspect of the conduit is that it is able to carry images of concepts not yet ‘real’.” So, whatever it was you could speak through it using ‘not yet real’ images. I found out more upon reading into a different text, which I now note:
“We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers…”—Mythic Dawn Commentaries
So it is also, what, the place of spirits before birth, and I would soon learn from a document I had encountered once before, it was their place after death as well:
“Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.”—The Loveletter
So Dagoth Ur was an inversion of the reincarnating mechanism of the universe? What would that mean, that he was born into the dreamsleeve, and awake there while dead in this world – that though he was dead here he was alive there, ‘asleep’ and dreaming that he was alive. And this tied in to something else that Vivec had said, he had called Dagoth Ur’s state a “shadow immortality”; afterall, if this were true then Dagoth's form here was just a dream manifestation, a 'shadow' of himself.

With all of this information in the back of my mind I would delve deeper yet, this time reading into the ‘36 Lessons of Vivec’, and I now note what I found applicable:
-From Sermon 11-"There is no true symbolism of the center. The Sharmat will believe there is… [The ruling king’s] death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing.”
-From Sermon 13-“The Sharmat sleeps at the center. He cannot bear to see it removed, the world of reference. This is the folly of the false dreamer. This is the amnesia of dream, or its power, or its circumvention.”
-From Sermon 15-“[The ruling king’s] greatest enemy is the Sharmat, who is the false dreamer. You or he is the shingle, Hortator… I AM THE SHARMAT…/ WHEN YOU SLEEP YOU SEE ME/DANCING AT THE CORE”
So the Sharmat, Dagoth Ur, sleeps at the center where there is no true symbolism though he will believe there is – furthermore, this center is his world of reference, which makes him the false dreamer. But what does all this talk of a center and symbolism have to do with the individual who exists through the inversion of the dreamsleeve and thereby is dead while dreaming that he lives. For the answer to that I would have to go to other of Vivec’s words, which I now note:
“The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus…We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names… the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see. Stand in its flux and remain whole of mind. Look at it sideways and see the ‘I’.”—Vehk’s Teachings
So, the center of the Wheel (the universe) is Mundus, and if one were to look at this sideways they will see the ‘I’. And what is the ‘I’: “Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I…I AM/A whole World of You./I ARE ALL WE.” It is the ‘symbolism’ that all of the world is but one, ‘I’, a singular individual (with a singular mind that would allow those within that mind to communicate with what would seem “not yet real” images, the dreamsleeve).

But Dagoth Ur was not at the outside of the Wheel observing the ‘I’ from there. No, he was at the center looking out; and what would you see if you were at the very center of a wheel and looked toward the rim, something resembling an ‘I’ extending forever – a false symbolism for the false dreamer, from the center he would have his viewpoint and his “world of reference” for seeing his false symbolism. And what did Dagoth Ur do before his fall, he attempted to create all his servants “in his flesh, and of his flesh” and controlled their minds as one – so perhaps he was molding the world around him to suite his own ‘I’, making them all ‘A whole World of Him’. As the Cultists said “He is All Things”, or at least he strove to be.

So Dagoth Ur himself died, but he dreamt he lived. Through his experiments with the Heart he saw his false symbolism of the ‘I’, and he lived from the place of death and simply put manifestations of his dream into the real world (and perhaps this is why when slain the Nerevarine spoke of his body turning to nothing; his body was “not yet real”, just a ‘dream’, and with the mind destroyed it could no longer sustain itself so it was simply wisped away and with the Heart gone it could not immediately return in power). These manifestations were able to tap the Heart directly to create Dagoth Ur as the world knew him. As the Sixth House cultists said “Only He is Awake!/Only He is Alive!” And indeed they were right, for no other was awake while dead. Arkved said of the dreamworld “I am the lord of limitless space”, as the Cultists said “He is All Things!”

But where does that leave us. What have we accomplished; we know more of Dagoth Ur’s nature, his motivations, and his state in existence. But what else is there. I leave you, dear reader, with only two more quotes:
-“He was a god, and now he is dead. IF one can truly kill a god.”—Vivec
-“Dagoth Ur is dead. I hope we will no longer be troubled by his dreams. But I wonder, too, what the ghost of a god would be. And can a dead god dream?”-- Hassour Zainsubani
Even the god Vivec wasn’t sure of his death, so, can a dead god dream? Or more directly, does killing the dream of a dead god cause the dream to end? Perhaps his manifestations were only made possible by the Heart of Lorkhan, and so with it freed and all connections lost more manifestations are impossible... but what of his dreaming self, shall it be recycled and regurgitated, or shall it find another way to make itself real...

Signed and sealed,
Luagar Anulam, ExDreamer, Herald of the Triune Way

The Sharmatine?

Elder Scrolls III just got so much cooler. Heck yes.

And are those (Hassour&Nibani's)quotes real? Because if they were hiding in plain sight I would have to slap myself.

Ha, now that would be fun to be in the next game...

Yes, I don't use false quotes... <_<

Good, good [censored] dude. Mad congrats, yo.

concerning this, I'm not too sure I'm correct on what "Aggregate" Nu Hatta accused Ur of being a pawn of. I first thought the "aggregation" of Nirn, if not the Aurbis, but then I did a small search and began to think maybe the Daedra, but seeing this info you presented...I don't even know anymore. Maybe the dreamsleeve itself? What if it IS the Aurbis, in some weird-ass way?

Man... got some reading to do, I guess... sum'b*tch

Being the pawn of the dreamsleeve or of the Aurbis is surely a possibility and one that I'll slightly step into below...

Another way of looking at it that has just recently crossed my mind employs breaking the fourth wall, but it might do. I use the line from Sermon 11 as the basis "[The ruling king] sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing." Now, this assumes that Dagoth Ur 'is dead but lives through his dreams', and that we (the player) are the ruling king. So, building off of this, since The Sharmat is our double, then I'd pose that we too (though not dead) 'live through our dreams' just as Dagoth Ur does. We dream of being a mage or a knight, and thus we are, living it out upon Tamriel. Dagoth Ur is the pawn of the aggregate (the whole - all the players and the game-world); he is the pawn of us all and the game-world (the Aurbis) because his only purpose is to make us (the player) into the hero of that world, which we do because we are afterall "in love with evil"...

Brilliant

Dagoth Ur may be able to somehow return, but if he does, he'll be devoid of the power that made him a god before.

Amazing.

I can't believe i didn't talk to nibani or huasaur after the MQ, If i did i would of had a lot to think on.

Concerning games, I usually try to avoid the "he/she/they know they're in a game" types of arguments (for some reason, it feels cliche to me, but I don't even really know why...). But once again, concerning games, TES is one of the most unique game series I've ever encountered, so it's certainly a possibility and one I'll have no qualms about accepting.

It seems perfectly logical to me that all beings drawing power from the Heart simply followed the Heart wherever it went when sundered from the Mundus.

To imagine that beings such as Dagoth Ur or Almalexia could simply "die" is an unfortunate illusion caused by the limitations of mortal perceptions and understandings.

They live on forever in the Heart, and perhaps continue to dream their own dreams. Vivec is there, too, or part of him. The being who achieved CHIM was a mortal who had been controlled by Vivec, or the power behind Him. If that makes sense... or am I wrong?

edit: In other words, I believe the beings left behind immediately after the Sundering of the Heart to have been simple puppets with the lingering effects of the gods who had occupied the shells still there but fading.

In the case of the Tribunal, the flesh golems had once been mortal Elves and so they remained, mortal but with a portion of the power they'd borrowed remaining...the true Gods of the Tribunal fled to whatever realm the Heart went to and vacated their puppets.

That's why a being like Almalexia is able to die, because she's no longer Almalexia but simply the avatar with the power source removed. A mortal paladin who falls too easily under the blade of her lover. A body remains in this instance.

Dagoth Ur, on the other hand, possibly had no real substance at all - and since He was closer to the Heart than the Tribunal, and didn't even need the tools to connect to it, perhaps he didn't need a corporeal body at all to project His image. That's why he literally fell to nothing after the Sundering.

Luagar,wow?Great work I am in awe.Very nice. :trophy: How long did you research this?

Luagar... simply amazing. I never noticed those quotes before.



That's what I always believed to be the case.

:bowdown:



:clap:

Edit:

Can we assume that it is possible that the severing from the heart only cut off Ur from his dreaming self, but that he is still awake in the dreamsleeve?

I thought...that's what Luagar said...

You are correct, sorry. I got so wrapped up in seeing things from Ur's point of view, if what Luagar wrote is correct, as well as some of the other points made here, that I totally lost track of what the real point was. Happens to me a little more than I'd like in this part of the forum. :hehe:

Thanks.

The heart didn't just go poof. The enchantments that allowed tapping into its power were destroyed; the heart was freed.

No worries.

Yea, I understand your sentiments perfectly, and I highly dislike breaking the fourth wall myself (though I never said he knew he was in the game, just that we both 'live though dreams'). If you want to put the fourth wall back you could probably relate it to being the pawn of the mythic universe - its the mythic universe that tells the story and Dagoth Ur is just the bad guy in the story designed to be defeated by the hero of it...

Well, I already knew were all the texts were, I just had to organize and anolyze them in the way I felt best described the point (and I'm still not sure the organization is right yet, there are a few more things I'd like to elaborate on). All in all it probably took about a full day, though it was spread out...

I'm not going to say with certainty that the points are correct, however they make sense to me and allow me to explain various things which I had no explanation for before and that's why I follow them...


And thanks for all the comments...

Edit: I've also edited a few more lines into the OP to elaborate on a few things...

Ah. That you didn't. I guess my imagination ran from me a bit.

Let me just ask one thing that has me confused: The point of Dagoth Ur's exsistence in TES III was to be the evil to the Nereverine's good, but he somehow knew it?

Edit: I'll get some coffee and re-read, but any guidance would be appreciated.

In my opinion, in a small sense, perhaps. But he thought he would win.

Remember that "pure" versions of good and evil don't exist on Nirn; technically, the base forces that created Nirn aren't necessarily good and evil (Anu and Padomay; stasis and change, repsectively).

No, I never said that Dagoth was aware of this, but the rest of that line of thought is correct (though that is not the point of the article)...

Ah, thanks. Gratz on the paper though. I'm still impressed that I missed all of this...

Luagar, I just get back to the lore forum after waiting for untold hours in London and Paris and I am treated to this gem. Thanks, it was interesting to read.