The army does not make up the majority of the Legion's population. That would be impossible. People like Dale Burton far outnumber the Legion's military in their own territory. We only see nothing but Legionaries and one Dale Burton because the Legion presence in the Mojave is a military campaign.

I wish we could get a damn Legion DLC already so that Legion's civilized side can be shown as well. <_<

Do you mean Dale Barton? The trader in the Fort? Regardless if there are more Dales in their homeland or not (how do you know there are more of him there?), the ideologies are still the same. CL is hell bent on slavery and conquest. I don't agree with slaves, or sixism and I can't imagine anyone in real life would either. Do we know how Arizona is run? Not really, so nobody can say if it is actually decent. I'm simply stating my opinion from the way CL operates in the Mojave.

I think Vexan pretty much sums up the legion there. Like i said Ceaser is a hypocrite and he isnt changing.

We know there are more Dales because an empire the size of the Legion doesn't survive on the patronage of a single merchant. That would be like Cassidy Caravans supporting the entire NCR. We are also told by Cass and other NPCs that Caesar's Legion does a better job of protecting caravans and roads in its territory. There are benefits to Legion occupation, because the game has told us as much. Stating your opinion is fine, but acting under the auspices that you are somehow morally superior to the Legion because they do things you don't like is folly. Destroy them because they are an obstacle, or change them because they oppose you. Ideological superiority is an illusion.

This is silly, there is no evidence of any kind of Legion civilisation. They have some fancy gold coins, thats it. The Legion is simply one vast war machine (that uses machetes and wears skirts) but a war machine no less. If they had towns and 'citizens' they would be mentioned when you are accepted by them, they don't though. All they talk about it killing ncr, taking slaves and other war-like things.

Untill we actually see something that resembles some kind of Legion 'civilisation' this kind of argument is nothing but silly speculation.

I don't remember it being stated that Dale barton is a Legion Civilian though.. He actually says that he 'prefers' dealing with the Legion. The Legion have these coins because, like they have to, they 'do' have dealings with non-Legion characters to aquire certain things. They don't survive on merchants, they survive on their own survival abilities as is evidence by their often carrying food items and anti venoms.. They survive and feed from their surroundings..

There may be more Dales, but there are definitely not more merchants that Legionnaires, that wouldn't make sense. Does Cass say the Legion actually protects its caravans? I thought she just said the roads were safer. Actually, she doesn't like the Legion IIRC (doesn't she leave you if you side with the Legion?). Also, I'm not saying I'm morally superior to the Legion, I just thought it was common knowledge that enslaving people, treating women like lesser beings, and crusifying people was bad, but maybe I was misguided :teehee:

We only have information from FONV to work with. CL has not been in any other Fallout game and Van Buren is not canon. What we see of CL is a group of warriors basically worshiping a leader who taught them how to fight after slaughtering their tribes. We see them perpetrate horrible acts of inhumanity and despite Obsidian's efforts to make it seem morally gray, the Legion still doesn't appear to be in anyway good. Please tell me how living in a country suppressed by fear, relying on slavery, practicing sixism, and punishing those who oppose them is a country to live in.

They have a capital city called Flagstaff. They rule all of Arizona. Maintaining a military of their size would be impossible without permanent settlements. The Legion as seen in The Fort are just military campaigners. They have a lot of slaves and citizens we don't see because we don't get to travel beyond the riverbank.



His primary operations are in Arizona and New Mexico, knee-deep in Legion territory. He may not be a Legionary, but he certainly is affiliated with the Legion. And, by "survive," I meant that they are a huge society with a great deal of territory, that requires infrastructure like roads and an economy. Foraging for food doesn't cover the entire Legion's needs, hence why they need traders like Dale Barton.

The roads are safer because the Legion actively destroys raiders and because they understand that supply lines are absolutely vital. That's why they work so hard to disrupt NCR supply lines, while at the same time not leaving their own supplies vulnerable to NCR reprisals.

Dictatorship, slavery, and sixism have existed since time immemorial. They worked fine in the British and Spanish empires, and the original Roman empire. Whether something is evil or "bad" is purely subjective. I would argue that what is evil is that which is not beneficial or constructive to society. Obviously, sixism doesn't serve a real purpose beyond stroking the ego of the six holding the leash, so I suppose I can agree that it could be called "evil."

Your right, slavery was used in all those cultures of which we consider primitive and inhumane. Those people were forced to work against their will and suffered punishment. Forcing others to do your work is not right in any sense of the word. Something being "good" or "bad" is subjective to a point. If someone can convince me that forcing another human being to do all your work by torturing them with fear and routinely punishing them is a good thing, then I will stand corrected.

I see the Legion more like a gang of conquering 'tribals' that offer a kind of 'protection racket' to conqeured foes as long as they abide by the rules Caesar put forward..
There is nothing in the game that would suggest otherwise to me. Certainly nothing that would suggest any kind of solid Legion civilisation. Anyone saying to the contrary is simply speculating, just like I am.
I've heard of this flaggstaff that is in the guide or something? Unfortunately there is next to no information on it, so for all we know it is simply another ruined city with a few tents, crosses and spiked skulls. Somewhere for Caesar to command from when he isn't making sure his army doesn't fluff up again.

If someone posed an actual threat to House, of course he would be eliminated. The Courier is an agent in one such killing -- Benny. But I'm not talking about individuals who have followers and the means to do real harm.
I'm talking about agitators -- people who, in the USA, get talk shows & in China or Iran get arrested as enemies of the state.
House will tolerate freedom of speech -- the Legion won't.

'Proof of wrongdoing' in this game is a slippery concept. It's very difficult to account for the faction's knowledge of the courier's doings. The devs have settled on stating that everyone has a huge network of spies, which lets them off the hook.

All large groups -- in real life and Fallout -- have a shady side. It's a sad fact that history has shown time and again; at some point in any organization/nation/group's existence, preservation of the group is prioritized over preserving the groups original intent.

Good or bad is always subjective. To me, "good" is constructive, while "bad" is purely destructive. Slavery is constructive. It builds nations. The suffering it causes among the enslaved is regrettable, but the alternative is that civilization never gets off its feet. The foundation of all modern civilization was built on slave labor. We wouldn't be having this conversation over the internet if our ancestors hadn't either been enslaved or done the enslaving. It is a fact of life. You don't simply build an empire on hopes, dreams, and voting.



The idea that the Legion could control as much territory as they do without permanent, fortified settlements is ridiculous. Besides that, Flagstaff is a real city in Arizona, with buildings Caesar no doubt taught his followers how to fix up. It can't be "another ruined city" since we never see a real Legion settlement, only a military camp. Camp Forlorn Hope is nothing but a bunch of tents. Should we then assume that Shady Sands has no walls or solid structures. No, as that would be presumptuous. Shady Sands had stone walls and permanent structures even before the NCR was even a twinkle in Aradesh's eye, and he didn't have the resources of a huge empire to draw on to help build his settlements.

To be fair they used the GECK to achieve this, not the magical radiation GECK from Fallout 3, but the original GECK which was filled with notes on how to create cement, dig wells, do agriculture et cetera.
Still, I do belive that the Legion got to have "some" idea on how to build things; the concept art for Legion shows one where slaves are working around a house in progress.

Caesar has a Followers education. He would likely know how to do those things, or would know where to find books that would contain that information.