Of course, gameplay-wise, you can do Shivering Isles at any time. But is there a canon timeline for how it unfolds?

It seems to me that, although the Champion of Cyrodiil frees Jyggalag and becomes Sheogorath from his own perspective, to the rest of the world it looks a little different: Jyggalag returns, Sheogorath remains more or less unchanged (seemingly confirmed in Skyrim), and the Champion of Cyrodiil mysteriously vanishes.

In terms of narrative, it doesn't really make sense for any of that to happen before the Oblivion Crisis is over. So I would conclude that it happened sometime after the crisis ended. Is this something that the Powers that Be at Bethesda have ever addressed?

As you say, gameplay-wise it matters not. I'm on my second Oblivion play-through. First time 'round my avatar went to the Realm of Madness quite early, at level three. He had done next to nothing in Cyrodiil before then. Join the Fighters Guild and a few side quests was about the extent of it. This play-through my avatar did not visit SI until much much later, long after the Crisis, becoming Divine Crusader and assuming leadership in several guilds. I preferred the second approach. It felt far more chronologically natural to me that way.

As to my avatar, that second time he was able to justify his sometimes less than virtuous actions in the Isles by treating the whole episode as an otherworldly experience with little-to-no bearing on Cyrodiilic reality.

I have not yet purchased Skyrim so can not address loric inconsistencies between games.

I agree, it definitely feels more chronologically natural for Shivering Isles to happen after the Oblivion crisis, although if Oblivion itself is your only reference point, it doesn't seem to make much difference. But Skyrim confuses the issue. It kind of makes a post-Oblivion Shivering Isles adventure a canonical necessity. What follows isn't exactly a Skyrim spoiler, but I'm putting it behind spoiler tags just in case:


So I'm more or less comfortable assuming that SI canonically occurs after Oblivion. I'm just curious about what Bethesda's official position is.

I have a hard time believing that Sheo can open a stable permanent portal into Cyrodiil after the events of the oblivion crisis though.

That's something often mentioned, but it's really no issue at all. It's addressed with an explanation right in Haskill's opening dialogue.

It wasn't a "real" portal. It was an invitation to his realm. Daedra could not enter Tamriel from it.

as the poserts above me said


Sheo could open his portal becuase it was a invitation to Mortals, no daedra could pass through.

I guess that accounts for going the other way as well ?

Why not? It just means Sheogorath saved Tamriel from Oblivion. It doesn't mean he was recoqnized as such. I can't even imagine how that'd happen. When you leave the Shivering Isles you lose all the powers you had as Sheogorath.

Tiber et all didn't mantle Lyg in a day. Ergo, the Champ could have escorted Martin to his destiny while being Sheogorath in name only.

Though, from the perspective of character development, it does make sense to do Shivering after the MQ. The Champ not only lost a good friend - he/she was ground-zero when Time itself unfurled into its Dragon-Shape to thwap an Eldritch Horror in the jaw. That would drive anybody loony.

It was Martin Septim who saved Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon. The Champion of Cyrodiil just helped -- and it's entirely plausible that only the gods and the Blades knew who that was. And if the Blades figured out they'd been getting help from the Daedric Prince of Madness, they'd probably keep their mouths shut about it.

You were still mortal, even as the Madgod though.

Either the first year of the 4th era, or the last year of the 3rd. They're basically the same thing, anyway.

somebody forgot to read the post...

My guess is that at some point, you slowly assumed the likeness of him. You probably retain all your prior knowledge though. Although the Daedra can assume any form they want, and problaby appears as he used to so things don't get stirred up in the Isles. He appeared as he did because what else could he look like? If they based him on a char, people would have a [censored] storm.

I prefer the idea that SI happened first. Only Sheogorath could travel into Paradise and kill Mankar (no doubt by using the Wabbajack), become leader of the Fighter's and Mage's guild of Tamriel, steal an elder scroll and become the listener, whilst dressing up as Pelinal. He drove everyone insane just by his presence and so everyone suffered trauma and blocked him from their memory.

I actually played a character who tried to conceivably complete all of the questlines and state-changes in one playthrough. She was an Altmer battlemage who sealed the gates as she defeated the Blackwood company, the King of Worms and Umaril. Swearing hatred against the Daedra, she plunges into the Shivering Isles, carrying an unknown Vampirism infection with her. She emerges as a vampiric aspect of Sheogorath. Spurred on by her disappointment and growing madness, she cares little for crime and people no longer respect her as she moves through shadowy organization after shadowy organization, finally emerging as some kind of Daedric Prince errand-girl. The vampiric cure was the last straw on her sanity and I lost interest after that.

The next one I tried to do that with turned out completely different, turning into a power-mad vampire who twisted the Knights of the Nine, Mage's Guild, and Thieves Guild together into some fanatical cult worshipping the one who conquered the Daedra and Madness itself even.

The only through-line I figured on was that the Knights of the Nine is nigh-impossible (or REALLY tedious) to start or continue if you do the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood.

Just trying to keep it short and sweet. How about this?

Either after the Oblivion Crisis (the first year of the 4th era), or during it (the last year of the 3rd). The difference is negligible in the grand scheme of things, since, when the dust has settled, it's still Sheogorath who aided Martin Septim.

I've always considered that Sheogorath would take back the Isles from the player once he gets his mind back. Jyggalag is the insane delusion that afflicts him once an era, and he found a way to neutralize the destruction that usually caused, by giving his powers away to the player to hold for him. Sheo knows he'll return to "normal" after a while, and can ask for them back, (or just wait for the mortal to die). He tells you himself that you won't really BE a Daedric Prince, but you'll have his powers, and they're hard to replace, so don't lose them.

200 years later, one way or the other, Sheo has his powers back. He regards the period where the CoC took over as one where the CoC was him, as he was being Jyggy at the time. If you weren't already CoC when you became his stand-in, then he'd consider that "Sheogorath" became the CoC, but only the people of the Isles would agree with that statement, and you know how crazy they are. Since the folks of Tamriel ultimately knew the player as the CoC, that's what Sheogorath calls him, regardless of whether he was that when he took over as acting Madgod.

So the "doesn't matter" answer seems to be appropriate. Player was catalyst in both events, the defeat of Dagon, and the defeat of Jyggalag. But ultimately Martin defeated Dagon, and Sheogorath outsmarted his Jyggalag persona by putting his powers out of his own reach for a time.

jygallag is an insane delusion

You've got that backwards.

Who destroys his own realm, Sheo or Jyggalag? Of course he'll tell you he's the sane one, but do you really have to believe him, just because he's bigger than you are?

As if the Isles are a model society. Dangerous bogs, vicious creatures, random violent death, wanton torture of innocents. Jyggy is halfway to hero.

As opposed to the Mary Suetopia of Cyrodiil?

Hmmm I somtimes wonder this also....

i think the isles happend first, really. All faction quests plus the main quest? Who else could do it besides an aspect of sheogorath? And as far as it goes sheogorath is a family title inherited from himself, there have been many sheos i believe, it refers to a title like madgod (or is the proper term) Also its no fun to say your character utterly failed at something, its extreamily boring to say that sheo came to his senses and took back his realm (also how could he? the coc would have all his symbols, its not like he would be much without them)