I gather that this is how it worked in Fallout 3.

A dungeon which ranges between, say, level 10 and 15 will have enemies and loot randomly generated to suit characters of that level (at least, those enemies and loot which are randomly generated at all).

Totally unique to that dungeon, or available with the right dice roll in other dungeons? I want to know if there will be items hidden in specific dungeons that cannot be found anywhere else.

Theres probably a few at least. Like Umbra and Daedric shrine items, or from quest dungeons. I would prefer randomized named bosses with their own personalized named item rather than just randomized items off generic NPCs though. Like a "Goblin" cave can draw from a list of unique Goblin bosses, and once its been spawned it cant spawn in another Goblin cave(because that would be silly).

Im pretty sure there was only one dungeon designer for the whole of Oblivion (not sure about expansions)

Is that quote for real?

Groan..

Well, Oscuro or one of his heirs will put things to right I'll just have to buy Skyrim in '13 instead of '11.

Without a doubt.

Edit:


"No, I think that it's totally rad to go into each dungeon knowing beforehand the sorts of items that I am likely to find inside. I hate surprises."

"Yes. Dungeon-crawling is so much more enjoyable when the dungeon has unique items inside which can't be found anywhere else."

Aren't those basically the samething? Both are saying that they should be hand crafted..

No there were 3, on skyrim there have been 8 for sure and I think I remember them saying 10 at 1 time, and there are less dungeons right now, but larger and much more unique over 110 at last count he said I also believe, oblivion had over 180 ? am not sure of this one

Oblivion had this, and it was one of the bad parts about the game. So much so that there were mods that got rid of the lame, artificially enforced level-the-world-as-you-level stuff.

Bethesda takes the easy way out when it comes to a lot of things, and this is prime suspect number one.

In Oblivion, there were about 200 or so dungeons. They had 5 different settings. You had your cave, you have your fort, you have your aelyd ruin, you had your sewer, and you had your mine. That was it. And it was dull, boring, repetitive and one of the BIG mods was (you guessed it) actual dungeons.

Bethesda really screwed up dungeons in Oblivion, not just with the lame level mechanic but because they were all totally bland.

Is it really that hard to sit down and come up with a unique dungeon with it's own storyline, setting, mobs and loot?

Bethesda=copy 'n paste dungeons.....sad to say, but it's true.

This = win.

If it's handled like FO3 without damage sponges added like in BS, it should be pretty good.
An on off leveling style, with OOO style npc equipment tables would be great.
Not to mention that it's implied that caves and their denizens are not static.
That they go out hunting is said already, if it holds true in reverse maybe we'd see some caves with randomesque unscripted battles going on.

The thing is..
Didn't Beth say the exact same thing about Oblivion dungeons?
"Oblivion dungeons will be nothing like Morrowind dungeons. Every dungeon in Oblivion will feel unique and different, unlike Morrowind dungeons."
and now we have,
"Skyrim dungeons will be nothing like Oblivion dungeons. Every dungeon in Skyrim will feel unique and different, unlike Oblivion dungeons."
:whistling:

That's why I said the conformity can be broken by unique circumstances and quest-line events. In general, the further you go from cities, the more dangerous random events become. In cities though, there could still be plenty of high level mysteries put in by hand or as part of a random unique encounter list.

And you're right, armies probably wouldn't clear out dungeons, only if they feel the threat is not substantial enough. Random undead probably wouldn't cause a near by city concern, but a fully fledged necromancer cult would.

So pretty much just like Oblivion right?

Random loot svcks bro, you open a hard-locked chest only to discover towel and a cup. Random leveled enemies sound ok in theory but end up feeling fake and obvious in practice, makes the world feel fake and kills the exploration/fear factor of discovering a new dungeon, is it going to be hard? or is it going to be easy? neither it's scaled to you. Plus it's fun to steam-roll a dungeon with easy baddies and it's fun to find a really hard dungeon and get your [censored] handed to you. This doesn't tend to happen

You're quite correct if we assume that the player has already played the game, and so knows where all of the items are hidden in each dungeon. But for someone playing the game for the first time, or even for the second or third, then they won't have a clue about what might be inside a dungeon if the loot is hand-placed and constant. But if the loot is random and dependent on the player-character's level, then he will know that the loot within the dungeon will be no different from the stuff that he could find in any other dungeon. If loot is random, you still have an idea about what will be in a dungeon, as it can only be something suitable for your current level. Soon after the game is reelased there will be spreadsheets detailing what kind of loot you can expect to find in dungeons at a particular level, and you will be able to see exactly what you might find inside a given dungeon. That is very different, on a first playthrough, to not having a clue as to what you might find because the loot has been hand-placed and can't be predicted in any way.

Source?

Yet another poll were there is no "other" option. Do you want people to respond to your poll? Do you really want to know the answer to your question, you gave hardly any options at all. I am starting to think that "other" should be mandatory in polls, automatic by the system, so all polls are much better and add more value to the forum.

nah i think dungeons should be filled with monsters that make sense to be there, i mean, id hate to see ice trolls in a stone castle-like dungeon, it would make no sense, how the hell it got there, why is it there, that whats they are fixing, probaly , every dungeon its going to be unique, your gona look at it and think" wow this dungeon is awesome", the right quantity of monsters, the monsters themselfs, and the dungeon athmosphere is what make it amazing, some puzzles , some unique loots over there, bigger number of diference betwen dungeons would make the perfect dungeon set, the thing is, we must remenber that the dungeon isn't only a underground bunch of corridors, it have a reason to exists, and thats pretty much what i want to see on the dungeons, oblivion only had a bunch of corridors with some bigger halls, maybe some bridges, nothing else, real dungeons are big, they have corridors but they have too amazingly big parts, full of mystery to solve, secrets to discover, evils to wake, who knows! the possibilitys are almost limitless if the radiant story actually works!

Quoting this so everyone sees it.


So basically each dungeon has its own range, so if you're like level 1 and enter a 16-20 dungeon you'll end up with a 16 dungeon.

I'll post what I said last page again since everyone seemed to skip right over it.

The thing is..
Didn't Beth say the exact same thing about Oblivion dungeons?
"Oblivion dungeons will be nothing like Morrowind dungeons. Every dungeon in Oblivion will feel unique and different, unlike Morrowind dungeons."
and now we have,
"Skyrim dungeons will be nothing like Oblivion dungeons. Every dungeon in Skyrim will feel unique and different, unlike Oblivion dungeons."
:whistling:

Except OB had 1 dungeon designer and 230 dungeons, Skyrim has 8 designers and 120 dungeons.

Uh, are you sure that's actually what having a high-low range means? If a dungeon is set it to a range of 8-16, for instance, it should means the challenge therein can scale to be suitable for characters of level 8 to 16. If you're lower level than this threshold the dungeon will be difficult, reaching its minimum level of 8 despite your level being only level 3. If you're higher level than this threshold it still won't go any higher than 16 even if you're level 35, meaning the dungeon will be easy. Whatever level the dungeon is set on is then remembered for this play-through, so if it turns out to be too difficult for you still, you can come back later and clear it out when you're stronger. This accomplishes a measure of flexibility not found in completely static difficulty set-ups, but steps away from having so much flexibility that each area ceases to be unique. This set-up also allows you build on the theory that the further you get into the wilderness, or dangerous areas the harder the difficult levels get. This is how I understand that Skyrim is doing it.

In my opinion it's the best way to do it as well. Completely random levels would probably just feel messy. It would probably also put many people off playing the game when they at early levels have their faces smashed by horrible monsters, and then later when they are strong, just keep meeting weaker crap that don't challenge them. Having it random would probably be a good way to ensure that the player is frustrated or downright bored throughout the entire experience. On the other and, having carefully tailored levels (without ranges) for each individual dungeon robs the player of his freedom of exploration, requiring him to go through the dungeons in a set sequence to be strong enough to handle the threats ahead of him. Having these set thresholds allows you the player to explore- not as freely as he wants, but sensibly exploring nearby locations in whichever order he prefers. If he chooses to head deeper into the wilds to far outlying dungeons without being ready for them, well then they will be hard- as it should be.

If I got this wrong, I'll really have to read a few more interviews. I seriously doubt it would dynamically adjust the challenge as you progress through the dungeon however. The phrasing of the quote suggests its an instantaneous decision made at the moment of entry. The core difference between Oblivion and Skyrim would simply be these thresholds, setting a boundary in each dungeon for how far Difficult or Easy it can go. It ensures that a group of bandits never end up in Daedric Armour, and that your sewer rats don't suddenly feel like Demonic Sabertooth Rodentizers; on the flip-side it also ensures that you never encounter feeble Daedra or Ogres that seem little stronger than the before mentioned sewer rats. I think it's a good call. It's how many mods decided to fix leveling in Oblivion, and I believe also how SureAI went about balancing Nehrim. It's tried and tested and it works, and people tend to like it. *Shrugs* Makes sense Bethesda would go with that option.

Edit:
In regards to the uniqueness of Dungeons I do feel that Bethesda delivered on their promise in Oblivion. At least in regards to the layout and structure of their dungeons. They were longer, had individual quirks and were far more fun exploring than the three minutes it took to explore and loot one of Morrowind's Ancestral Tombs. The problem came from their auto-matched loot and monster levels to the player's level, ensuring that you never encountered anything actually surprising. Though the dungeons themselves were not predictable, but quite well built, the overall experience ended up predictable and quite lacklustre because of it. Sure they had a limited number of tilesets to work with, and sure you recognized the pieces they had used, and were able to predict with traps were going to be because of it, but I think their designers did a good job with what they had.

I think Forral nailed it.

It has been stated that lvl somewhat to your level, that doesn't mean they will be exactly at your level, some will be offset higher than your level, while others will be lower, and the level will be locked as you enter them.




I don't know about loot, even though I found dungeon crawling satisfying on higher levels in OB.

In any case, I can't vote in your poll, because I kind of want some kind of level scaling, exactly because I don't want to be able to steamroll through every dungeon.

Indeed based on what we know, about its simlaritys to Fallout, the level ceilings that are mentioned,etc This seems acurate. Also mention is that some dungeons level will be set by radiant story(I assume over riding whatever it was at to begin with).

I'm sorry but where are you getting this info from? I'm not saying your wrong i'm just saying i don't remember hearing/reading any of this